Discussion:
Antenna optimization
(too old to reply)
JC
2006-07-11 14:03:46 UTC
Permalink
Is there a software which can design an antenna (like EZNEC or similar )
then allows to automatically optimize its dimensions according to given
requirements: max gain, F/B, min swr... and accepted dimensional parameters
changes: boom length, spacing....
JC
Bob Bob
2006-07-11 15:01:25 UTC
Permalink
Yes!

I think EZNEC has a optimization function as you stated. I know 4NEC2
does as I have used it many times..

Cheers Bob VK2YQA
Post by JC
Is there a software which can design an antenna (like EZNEC or similar )
then allows to automatically optimize its dimensions according to given
requirements: max gain, F/B, min swr... and accepted dimensional parameters
changes: boom length, spacing....
JC
Roy Lewallen
2006-07-12 04:59:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Bob
Yes!
I think EZNEC has a optimization function as you stated. I know 4NEC2
does as I have used it many times..
No, sorry, EZNEC doesn't have any optimization capability.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL
Reg Edwards
2006-07-11 15:12:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by JC
Is there a software which can design an antenna (like EZNEC or
similar )
Post by JC
then allows to automatically optimize its dimensions according to given
requirements: max gain, F/B, min swr... and accepted dimensional parameters
changes: boom length, spacing....
JC
----------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
Dear JC,

You don't need software. What you describe is non-existent anyway.
What you want is a long experienced antenna designer who can be
permanently engaged on your behalf. There are very few of such
creatures about.

You will have to be numerically quite specific about particular
problems. And even then you will get solutions which, with luck, are
probably only in the right ball-park.

On the other hand, ball-park solutions are perfectly satisfactory. In
the nature of events, no-one has ever solved an antenna problem which
is other than in a ball-park. Fortunately, antennas work quite well
even when in the wrong ball-park.

Download a free copy of EZNEC and in a few months time you may have
solved your first complicated, specific problem. As time goes on, you
will become more adept and there will be no need to engage a long
experienced antenna designer. You will have become one youself and
can offer your services for hire.

If you have a specific problem you may, if you are lucky, find a
computer program written by someone who has already solved it. But its
highly unlikely to be exactly the same problem. It will be in a
somewhat different ball-park.

Optimisation is out! You will have to contend with whatever you can
get your hands on. What's been done before. Take it or leave it!
----
Reg.
JC
2006-07-11 16:37:32 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for help, I think I wrongly explained my problem, here is the
question:
1/ I design an antenna, for instance a 3 el 20m beam.
2/ I enter into EZNEC wires dimensions, spacing, height, source.....
3/ EZNEC calculates gain, F/B, SWR....and results are acceptable.
4/ Now let's suppose my objectives are max F/B as I have a QRM source
opposed to my favourite transmitting direction and SWR< 1.5 on a given
frequency range as my transceiver is very SWR sensitive and I can't use an
antenna tuner.
I accept changing wire lengths and spacing but not boom length.
Is there a way to have EZNEC, or another software, doing automatic
iterations until it reaches the best F/B-SWR compromise ?

JC - F8ND
Post by JC
Post by JC
Is there a software which can design an antenna (like EZNEC or
similar )
Post by JC
then allows to automatically optimize its dimensions according to
given
Post by JC
requirements: max gain, F/B, min swr... and accepted dimensional
parameters
Post by JC
changes: boom length, spacing....
JC
----------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
Dear JC,
You don't need software. What you describe is non-existent anyway.
What you want is a long experienced antenna designer who can be
permanently engaged on your behalf. There are very few of such
creatures about.
You will have to be numerically quite specific about particular
problems. And even then you will get solutions which, with luck, are
probably only in the right ball-park.
On the other hand, ball-park solutions are perfectly satisfactory. In
the nature of events, no-one has ever solved an antenna problem which
is other than in a ball-park. Fortunately, antennas work quite well
even when in the wrong ball-park.
Download a free copy of EZNEC and in a few months time you may have
solved your first complicated, specific problem. As time goes on, you
will become more adept and there will be no need to engage a long
experienced antenna designer. You will have become one youself and
can offer your services for hire.
If you have a specific problem you may, if you are lucky, find a
computer program written by someone who has already solved it. But its
highly unlikely to be exactly the same problem. It will be in a
somewhat different ball-park.
Optimisation is out! You will have to contend with whatever you can
get your hands on. What's been done before. Take it or leave it!
----
Reg.
w***@yahoo.com
2006-07-11 17:31:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by JC
4/ Now let's suppose my objectives are max F/B as I have a QRM source
opposed to my favourite transmitting direction and SWR< 1.5 on a given
frequency range as my transceiver is very SWR sensitive and I can't use an
antenna tuner.
I accept changing wire lengths and spacing but not boom length.
Is there a way to have EZNEC, or another software, doing automatic
iterations until it reaches the best F/B-SWR compromise ?
K6STI's Yagi Optimizer 7.0 does a very nice job of this. You can
choose the weighting of Gain, F/R, SWR or Impedance and optimize over
any choice of frequencies. See my results for a pair of stacked KLM
Yagis on 28 MHz here:

http://users.vnet.net/btippett/yagi_optimizer_7_0.htm

Unfortunately K6STI no longer markets his software to hams (due to
software piracy issues). Hopefully you can find someone with a copy
who can optimize your initial results.

73, Bill W4ZV
Frank
2006-07-11 18:01:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@yahoo.com
Unfortunately K6STI no longer markets his software to hams (due to
software piracy issues). Hopefully you can find someone with a copy
who can optimize your initial results.
73, Bill W4ZV
You could try ARRL's "YW", available with the "Antenna Book".

Frank
Ben Jackson
2006-07-11 19:22:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@yahoo.com
Unfortunately K6STI no longer markets his software to hams (due to
software piracy issues). Hopefully you can find someone with a copy
who can optimize your initial results.
Careful, you're pegging my irony meter.
--
Ben Jackson AD7GD
<***@ben.com>
http://www.ben.com/
w***@yahoo.com
2006-07-11 20:45:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Jackson
Post by w***@yahoo.com
Unfortunately K6STI no longer markets his software to hams (due to
software piracy issues). Hopefully you can find someone with a copy
who can optimize your initial results.
Careful, you're pegging my irony meter.
Why? The documentation says:

************************************************************************
This software is copyrighted. It has been provided to
you on the condition that you will not sell, rent, lend, give
away, or otherwise transfer the software to others.
************************************************************************

As I read it, there is no problem if I use it to optimize a model
for someone else. I'm NOT volunteering to do that however.

73, Bill W4ZV
Richard Clark
2006-07-12 16:27:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@yahoo.com
Post by Ben Jackson
Post by w***@yahoo.com
Unfortunately K6STI no longer markets his software to hams (due to
software piracy issues). Hopefully you can find someone with a copy
who can optimize your initial results.
Careful, you're pegging my irony meter.
************************************************************************
This software is copyrighted. It has been provided to
you on the condition that you will not sell, rent, lend, give
away, or otherwise transfer the software to others.
************************************************************************
As I read it, there is no problem if I use it to optimize a model
for someone else. I'm NOT volunteering to do that however.
Hi Bill,

Strange as it may seem, yes you would be in violation.

Copyright is the author's total monopoly to insure his revenue from
his creation. If you disrupt that revenue flow you are breaking the
law. You said it yourself, he doesn't market to amateurs - rather
professionals who will pay for the LICENSE to use it professionally.
If they choose to do someone a favor, and drop their fee, that is
their hit, not his. He granted them the right, by LICENSE and at a
cost, to lose money if they wish.

Hence the irony meter being pegged.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC
Yuri Blanarovich
2006-07-12 17:08:51 UTC
Permalink
Is this lawyertwist's interpretation?
Like it is not COPYright it is REVENUEright?
Don't you anybody ask to read my copyrighted magazine issue! You will
disrupt the revenue flow of the publisher/authors. Oh, and don't read any
magazines in your dentist's office while you are shaking for the treatment.
You could be imprisoned, but Sandy Burglar can give disks to Chinese and
stuff his pants with classified documents with impunity.
If I paid for the software/book and I use it 24 hours a day or once a year
is not anybody's freakin business. Copyright is about COPYING or selling
unauthorized copies. Gimme a break, or yuoze guyze just love to argue
phantom threads?

Get on the air. Tesla Radioclub fired up from it's new QTH as N2T
celebrating 150th birthday of this greatest engineering genius (who would be
turned into idiot by this NG guruship).

Yuri, K3BU
www.TeslaRadio.org
Post by Richard Clark
Post by w***@yahoo.com
Post by Ben Jackson
Post by w***@yahoo.com
Unfortunately K6STI no longer markets his software to hams (due to
software piracy issues). Hopefully you can find someone with a copy
who can optimize your initial results.
Careful, you're pegging my irony meter.
************************************************************************
This software is copyrighted. It has been provided to
you on the condition that you will not sell, rent, lend, give
away, or otherwise transfer the software to others.
************************************************************************
As I read it, there is no problem if I use it to optimize a model
for someone else. I'm NOT volunteering to do that however.
Hi Bill,
Strange as it may seem, yes you would be in violation.
Copyright is the author's total monopoly to insure his revenue from
his creation. If you disrupt that revenue flow you are breaking the
law. You said it yourself, he doesn't market to amateurs - rather
professionals who will pay for the LICENSE to use it professionally.
If they choose to do someone a favor, and drop their fee, that is
their hit, not his. He granted them the right, by LICENSE and at a
cost, to lose money if they wish.
Hence the irony meter being pegged.
73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC
Richard Clark
2006-07-12 18:26:33 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 13:08:51 -0400, "Yuri Blanarovich"
Post by Yuri Blanarovich
Gimme a break, or yuoze guyze just love to argue
Talk about bellyaching....
Jim - NN7K
2006-07-12 23:13:48 UTC
Permalink
Does this also include ALL Public Libraries
(includeing the Library of Congress)??
Especially those that have Copying Machines?

If so, then DON'T support them, BAN'em!!
A thought-- Jim NN7K
Post by Yuri Blanarovich
Is this lawyertwist's interpretation?
Like it is not COPYright it is REVENUEright?
Don't you anybody ask to read my copyrighted magazine issue! You will
disrupt the revenue flow of the publisher/authors. Oh, and don't read any
magazines in your dentist's office while you are shaking for the treatment.
Yuri Blanarovich
2006-07-13 00:02:38 UTC
Permalink
Back to antenna optimization, modeling software is a great tool and can save
a lot of tinkering with hardware in the freezing nights, but has to be taken
with a grain of salt. I treat it as a "bring me into the ballpark" tool,
rather than "gospel".

K6STI did great job with his YO and AO and W4ZV used it to optimize his KLM
stacks very closely.

I tried it on my 3 el. Quad design, which was originally designed on the 2m
antenna test range and then scaled to HF bands, which worked quite well,
within 50 kHz in resonant frequencies. When I tried to make it better by
sticking it into optimization software, the software made it better, on
paper. When I readjusted the dimensions accordingly, thing was off and worse
than before. Maybe software did not capture the color of spreaders. There
are still some parameters that modeling does not capture 100% and I am
always taking the modeling results with grain of salt.

There is whole "industry" of antenna "designers" doing it on models and
proclaiming as gospel. Reality is sometimes cruel and doesn't care what the
model says, especially when considering the environment in which antennas
are to operate. Just caution not believe 100% blindly what the model says,
as we saw in case of loading coils. I love the free space designs :-)

YO, AO, MMANA, 4NEC2 are great tools and to see how good they are, just let
them optimize the same design and see how close they get within each other.

Sorry to see Brian, K6STI quit producing ham stuff, but I do not blame him.
I was in the similar situation, developed Cyrillic languages support for
desktop publishing, sold few dozen copies, only to find that there were
hundreds if not thousands in use from Praha to Vladivostok. I can see my
stamp in the fonts files all over the world. So I quit producing the
software and let the Microsoft carry on, now it is built into Windoze.

73 Yuri, K3BU
Does this also include ALL Public Libraries (includeing the Library of
Congress)??
Especially those that have Copying Machines?
If so, then DON'T support them, BAN'em!!
A thought-- Jim NN7K
Post by Yuri Blanarovich
Is this lawyertwist's interpretation?
Like it is not COPYright it is REVENUEright?
Don't you anybody ask to read my copyrighted magazine issue! You will
disrupt the revenue flow of the publisher/authors. Oh, and don't read any
magazines in your dentist's office while you are shaking for the treatment.
w***@yahoo.com
2006-07-12 21:41:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Clark
Post by w***@yahoo.com
Post by Ben Jackson
Post by w***@yahoo.com
Unfortunately K6STI no longer markets his software to hams (due to
software piracy issues). Hopefully you can find someone with a copy
who can optimize your initial results.
Careful, you're pegging my irony meter.
************************************************************************
This software is copyrighted. It has been provided to
you on the condition that you will not sell, rent, lend, give
away, or otherwise transfer the software to others.
************************************************************************
As I read it, there is no problem if I use it to optimize a model
for someone else. I'm NOT volunteering to do that however.
Hi Bill,
Strange as it may seem, yes you would be in violation.
Copyright is the author's total monopoly to insure his revenue from
his creation. If you disrupt that revenue flow you are breaking the
law. You said it yourself, he doesn't market to amateurs - rather
professionals who will pay for the LICENSE to use it professionally.
If they choose to do someone a favor, and drop their fee, that is
their hit, not his. He granted them the right, by LICENSE and at a
cost, to lose money if they wish.
Hi Richard,

1. I paid for the non-professional version of K6STI's software while he
WAS selling to amateurs. If you read his agreement carefully, it only
prohibits transfer of the software itself.

2. I am not sure Brian markets YO to professionals any longer. There
was apparently one well-known antenna manufacturer who bought his
non-professional version and used it to design commercial antennas. I
understand that this contributed to Brian's decision to exit the
amateur business, but the main reason was someone in Europe hacked his
RITTY program and posted it publicly.

3. If I were to do a gratis optimization for someone today, that would
not violate the original license (i.e. transfer of the software itself)
and Brian's revenue flow is not being broken since he no longer has any
revenue flow from it. If a professional consultant were involved, they
would have to show they sustained actual damages (i.e. lost business)
which might be difficult to prove (not to mention the time and cost of
doing so).
Post by Richard Clark
Hence the irony meter being pegged.
No, that's the too-much-time-on-their-hands troll meter pegging. :-)

It's a shame the piracy issue drove K6STI from the ham business. He is
truly a genius and I love his AO, YO and DSP Blaster programs. I
believe he's now doing something in the audiophile business...their
gain and our loss.

73, Bill W4ZV.
Richard Clark
2006-07-12 21:49:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@yahoo.com
Brian's revenue flow is not being broken since he no longer has any
revenue flow from it.
Hi Bill,

This is NOT a defense against infringement. The author's rights are
total, and the author's monopoly is total. There is nothing in the
law that suspends those rights or monopoly even in the event of death
of the author, so being out of the market place is a specious
argument.

This, and everything else you've had to offer may in fact be done, I
see folks run red lights frequently too.
Post by w***@yahoo.com
If you read his agreement carefully, it only
prohibits transfer of the software itself.
I've read many agreements, but not this one. If you have a means to
render it faithfully here, then perhaps so; otherwise those others
I've read inform me better.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC
Roy Lewallen
2006-07-12 22:16:09 UTC
Permalink
I can't speak for Brian, but any output you produce from EZNEC is yours,
and you can sell it or give it away as you wish. I think this is typical
of software license agreements.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL
Post by Richard Clark
Post by w***@yahoo.com
Brian's revenue flow is not being broken since he no longer has any
revenue flow from it.
Hi Bill,
This is NOT a defense against infringement. The author's rights are
total, and the author's monopoly is total. There is nothing in the
law that suspends those rights or monopoly even in the event of death
of the author, so being out of the market place is a specious
argument.
This, and everything else you've had to offer may in fact be done, I
see folks run red lights frequently too.
Post by w***@yahoo.com
If you read his agreement carefully, it only
prohibits transfer of the software itself.
I've read many agreements, but not this one. If you have a means to
render it faithfully here, then perhaps so; otherwise those others
I've read inform me better.
73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC
w***@yahoo.com
2006-07-12 22:58:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roy Lewallen
I can't speak for Brian, but any output you produce from EZNEC is yours,
and you can sell it or give it away as you wish. I think this is typical
of software license agreements.
I agree Roy. The **software** is licensed...not its output. Brian's
license agreement says absolutely nothing about output.

Am I correct about Brian going into the audio business? Thought you
might know.

73, Bill W4ZV
w***@yahoo.com
2006-07-12 23:34:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@yahoo.com
Am I correct about Brian going into the audio business? Thought you
might know.
Quick Google search resulted in the following. Not sure how Brian is
making money on this but his head is clearly not into ham radio any
longer. :-(

http://users.tns.net/~bb/index.html

73, Bill W4ZV
Tom Ring
2006-07-13 00:37:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Clark
I've read many agreements, but not this one. If you have a means to
render it faithfully here, then perhaps so; otherwise those others
I've read inform me better.
73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC
Well, searching the documemtation of version 6.04, I can find only this
in YO.DOC

Copyright 1995 by Brian Beezley, K6STI
All Rights Reserved

Version 5.0 is not quite the same, this is from READ.ME, nothing in
YO.DOC, or any other file

Copyright and License


This software is copyrighted. It is licensed for use by
the purchaser only. Copies may not be sold, rented, leased,
loaned, given away, or otherwise distributed. This copy is
licensed for amateur use only.


That's all there is in either version of YO that contains the
"copyright" in any form, case insensitive. I am ignoring the companion
programs. Interestingly, the .EXE files do not include a copyright
notice internal to the program, at least in plain text. The only thing
that shows when running the program (v6.x) is "Copyright 1995 by Brian
Beezley, K6STI All Rights Reserved" at the top line on the files menu.
I am writing the last from memory since it's a DOS program, so I might
not have it perfect.

tom
K0TAR
Roy Lewallen
2006-07-13 01:03:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Ring
That's all there is in either version of YO that contains the
"copyright" in any form, case insensitive. I am ignoring the companion
programs. Interestingly, the .EXE files do not include a copyright
notice internal to the program, at least in plain text. The only thing
that shows when running the program (v6.x) is "Copyright 1995 by Brian
Beezley, K6STI All Rights Reserved" at the top line on the files menu.
I am writing the last from memory since it's a DOS program, so I might
not have it perfect.
Under current U.S. law, a copyright notice isn't required in order to
secure a copyright; the copyright automatically exists as soon as the
work is created. Adding a copyright notice does bring some advantages
if a lawsuit is filed, however.

Disclaimer: I'm not an attorney.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL
Tom Ring
2006-07-13 01:30:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roy Lewallen
Under current U.S. law, a copyright notice isn't required in order to
secure a copyright; the copyright automatically exists as soon as the
work is created. Adding a copyright notice does bring some advantages
if a lawsuit is filed, however.
Disclaimer: I'm not an attorney.
Roy Lewallen, W7EL
I am only passing along what I have found. I have no dog in this fight,
hihi.

tom
K0TAR
John Popelish
2006-07-13 01:43:36 UTC
Permalink
Tom Ring wrote:
(snip)
I have no dog in this fight, hihi.
Tom, please define "hihi" in this context. Thank you.
Tom Ring
2006-07-13 01:56:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Popelish
(snip)
I have no dog in this fight, hihi.
Tom, please define "hihi" in this context. Thank you.
hihi, CW for laughter. Lots of dits in a row. Meant I am amused by the
whole thing.

Do you need more explanation, or was that adequate?

tom
K0TAR
John Popelish
2006-07-13 02:12:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Ring
Post by John Popelish
(snip)
I have no dog in this fight, hihi.
Tom, please define "hihi" in this context. Thank you.
hihi, CW for laughter. Lots of dits in a row. Meant I am amused by the
whole thing.
Do you need more explanation, or was that adequate?
Perfectly adequate. Thank you.

I have seen this a lot, lately, and didn't know its meaning.
Tom Ring
2006-07-13 02:23:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Popelish
Perfectly adequate. Thank you.
I have seen this a lot, lately, and didn't know its meaning.
As a Syrius Cybernetics construct would say "Glad to be of service!"

tom
K0TAR
Cecil Moore
2006-07-13 03:28:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Ring
hihi, CW for laughter.
hii hii, the beginning of the Texas Aggie war hymn.

"Hullabaloo, Caneck! Caneck! Hullabaloo, Caneck! Caneck!"
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp
J. Mc Laughlin
2006-07-13 03:12:20 UTC
Permalink
Dear Roy and the group:

As you know, my other job is that of a patent attorney. It is time to
comment.

We are not concerned with patents. It is common to overlap patent
protection of something useful with copyright protection of an expression.
This is more common when software is involved because a patent might involve
software and Congress has made it clear that software is amiable of
copyright protection.

As you have observed, a copyright notice is no longer required.
However, I always tell clients to provide such a notice. Judges, most
reasonably, may wonder why a notice was not provided when to do so costs (in
most cases) nothing and the absence of a notice can cause mischief. The
requirement not to require notices was due to pressure from European
interests.

If one thinks one will need to defend one's copyright, it is beneficial
to register the copyright with the Copyright Office (part of the Library of
Congress) - a simple process.

Let us turn to what copyright is: it is the right to prevent the making
of copies of a work by others. One who holds a copyright to a work has the
right to control copies of that work. Congress and the courts have carved
out some exceptions. We have seen one used here where one copies small
sections of a copyrighted book or paper. Researchers and universities are
given some narrow rights to copy the works of others. In a law suit, an
important aspect is the degree that someone's unauthorized copying has
actually injured the copyright owner.

Absent a specific contract to the contrary, one who legally purchases a
copyrighted work may sell it, destroy it, read it if it can be read, and run
it on a computer if it is software. Such a lawful copy may be used to
facilitate the crafting of another work (such as using WordPerfect to write
a letter) or may be used to facilitate the fabrication of useful articles
(such as the use of EZNEC to design an antenna that is improved in some
way).


Let us keep patent protection and copyright protection in their separate
cages.

To the issue of the French radio amateur who started this long string
(and with a nod to the opinion of the experienced radio amateur in the UK):
optimization of more than simple antennas still requires the intersession of
a thoughtful and experienced human. My experience has been that the human's
main contribution relates to crafting an adaptive notion of what optimum is,
for the subject antenna. In other words: knowing when further playing is
not appropriate.

73, Mac N8TT
--
J. Mc Laughlin; Michigan U.S.A.
Post by Roy Lewallen
Post by Tom Ring
That's all there is in either version of YO that contains the
"copyright" in any form, case insensitive. I am ignoring the companion
programs. Interestingly, the .EXE files do not include a copyright
notice internal to the program, at least in plain text. The only thing
that shows when running the program (v6.x) is "Copyright 1995 by Brian
Beezley, K6STI All Rights Reserved" at the top line on the files menu.
I am writing the last from memory since it's a DOS program, so I might
not have it perfect.
Under current U.S. law, a copyright notice isn't required in order to
secure a copyright; the copyright automatically exists as soon as the
work is created. Adding a copyright notice does bring some advantages
if a lawsuit is filed, however.
Disclaimer: I'm not an attorney.
Roy Lewallen, W7EL
Owen Duffy
2006-07-13 03:44:28 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 23:12:20 -0400, "J. Mc Laughlin"
Post by J. Mc Laughlin
Absent a specific contract to the contrary, one who legally purchases a
copyrighted work may sell it, destroy it, read it if it can be read, and run
it on a computer if it is software. Such a lawful copy may be used to
facilitate the crafting of another work (such as using WordPerfect to write
a letter) or may be used to facilitate the fabrication of useful articles
(such as the use of EZNEC to design an antenna that is improved in some
way).
Mac, I am not sure of you meaning of a "specific contract".

It is often the case that we acquire software (being a copyright work)
under a licence that is an agreement between the licensor and the
licensee.

The agreement may be in the form of a general license, for instance an
end user licence that the user is deemed to have accepted in using the
software, or it could be in the form of a specific formal agreement
executed by the parties.

That agreement may limit the licensee's rights, including the purpose
for which software is used.

I give an example, the BestOne mainframe performance evaluation suite
licence limited it use to execution a specific computer and explicitly
only for analysis of performance data collected from that computer.

Isn't the license agreement like any contract in that the parties can
agree to anything lawful.

It seems to me that one has to read the relevant licence agreement to
form a view on what is or isn't permitted by the licence in addition
to any rights under copyright statutes.

Owen
--
J. Mc Laughlin
2006-07-17 02:41:21 UTC
Permalink
Dear Owen:

I was indicating a contract that was specific to the intellectual
property involved. As you know very well: to have a contract, certain
things must exist. Often with software, a meeting of the minds between the
two parties is absent ("agreement" is inside of the software package or is
too vague) or at least highly attenuated because of no chance to bargain. A
license is usually a contract.

One of the best such agreements that I have seen is one that was used by
WordPerfect. It was short, clear, and provided for the natural needs of
both parties.

One of the worst was a proffered contract (for the purchase of a
quantity of computers plus software) by a very major computer company that
was long, convoluted, and essentially wanted your first born son it there
were any deviation from the terms. At the same time, a contract was
proffered by a then major Midwestern company. It was on one side of a piece
of paper, clear, and said that as long as good faith was shown to comply
with all of the terms, there would be no penalties assessed. The effects on
comparing these two documents is obvious.

Of course, if the subject matter is lawful, parties may contract anything.
However, the courts may not enforce some contracts depending on the nature
of the clause at issue and the manner in which the contract was presented.
The contracts least likely to have problems are those between parties of
roughly equal bargaining power.

No matter what the issue is, I always advise clients to practice the
golden-rule. Do not ask for too much. Do not promise too much. Be
reasonable. Be clear.

I an not sure, but I do not think that I disagree with what you have
presented.

I will be off to bed with one more example of what the law is and should
be: the contract provisions of an insurance contract were being contested
in court: the judge took judicial notice that a reasonable person would
find a contradiction between what was on one page and what was on another
page, thus that clause means whatever the plaintiff thinks it means. After
that judgment, that type of contract became much more clear.

There is more to a contract than the words of the contract - sometimes.

73, Mac N8TT
--
J. Mc Laughlin; Michigan U.S.A.
Post by Owen Duffy
On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 23:12:20 -0400, "J. Mc Laughlin"
Post by J. Mc Laughlin
Absent a specific contract to the contrary, one who legally purchases a
copyrighted work may sell it, destroy it, read it if it can be read, and run
it on a computer if it is software. Such a lawful copy may be used to
facilitate the crafting of another work (such as using WordPerfect to write
a letter) or may be used to facilitate the fabrication of useful articles
(such as the use of EZNEC to design an antenna that is improved in some
way).
Mac, I am not sure of you meaning of a "specific contract".
It is often the case that we acquire software (being a copyright work)
under a licence that is an agreement between the licensor and the
licensee.
The agreement may be in the form of a general license, for instance an
end user licence that the user is deemed to have accepted in using the
software, or it could be in the form of a specific formal agreement
executed by the parties.
That agreement may limit the licensee's rights, including the purpose
for which software is used.
I give an example, the BestOne mainframe performance evaluation suite
licence limited it use to execution a specific computer and explicitly
only for analysis of performance data collected from that computer.
Isn't the license agreement like any contract in that the parties can
agree to anything lawful.
It seems to me that one has to read the relevant licence agreement to
form a view on what is or isn't permitted by the licence in addition
to any rights under copyright statutes.
Owen
--
Richard Clark
2006-07-13 01:48:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Ring
That's all there is in either version of YO that contains the
"copyright" in any form, case insensitive. I am ignoring the companion
programs.
Hi Tom,

Pretty unsophisticated, certainly. This redoubles my experience with
other licensing as being far more exclusive.

However, with five patents of my own, I can certainly attest that
these scraps offer protection that have all the muscle of paper. These
ego certificates allow you to get past a lawyer's secretary and spend
money trying to convince judges with the technically savvy of
troglodytes.

Franklin was right about these matters.

As for automated optimization, NASA spent huge bucks on this stuff to
design twisted paper clips to replace Walt's work of 30 years ago. I
can well bet that license runs pages. If the testimonials to Beezley
are any indicator, the utility of the software is in inverse
proportion to the length of its license.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC
Tom Ring
2006-07-13 02:16:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Clark
As for automated optimization, NASA spent huge bucks on this stuff to
design twisted paper clips to replace Walt's work of 30 years ago. I
can well bet that license runs pages. If the testimonials to Beezley
are any indicator, the utility of the software is in inverse
proportion to the length of its license.
73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC
However some of it does work very well. YO, when used correctly can
just barely beat K1FO's designs, which were done on a PDP11, using a
special version of BASIC, as I remember from conversations with him long
ago.

He got the designs as right as possible, using an EME'rs version of
right. He hit max gain for boomlength within less than 1dB, pattern is
wonderful, SWR BW is astonishing, and pattern and gain are all fairly
constant across the usable SWR BW. Input impedance is not too low, at
about 20-25 ohms, and efficient match can be had with a T-match. And it
handles ice and rain detuning perfectly. Build sensitivity is nice; you
can skew the design by induced errors of +-2mm element length and +-5mm
vertical off the boom and +-2mm element position on the boom with no
significant change. Gain not off by .1dB, pattern not off by 2dB,
normally less. I ran a lot of tests. And I could be misremembering a
bit, but probably by too high rather than too low.

And YO could beat K1FO by only hudredths of a dB. If he'd had more CPU
power to do more runs per day...

tom
K0TAR
Richard Clark
2006-07-13 03:04:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Ring
He got the designs as right as possible, using an EME'rs version of
right. He hit max gain for boomlength within less than 1dB, pattern is
wonderful, SWR BW is astonishing, and pattern and gain are all fairly
constant across the usable SWR BW. Input impedance is not too low, at
about 20-25 ohms, and efficient match can be had with a T-match. And it
handles ice and rain detuning perfectly. Build sensitivity is nice; you
can skew the design by induced errors of +-2mm element length and +-5mm
vertical off the boom and +-2mm element position on the boom with no
significant change. Gain not off by .1dB, pattern not off by 2dB,
normally less. I ran a lot of tests. And I could be misremembering a
bit, but probably by too high rather than too low.
Hi Tom,

This is all pretty significant stuff. Its success probably ties in
with what Reggie had to say about the quality of automated software
being tied to the competence of the user/designer (Reggie may wish to
distance himself from my paraphrase however).

As a negative example, some half decade or more ago we had a fractal
designer who threw as much computational horsepower at this as his
budget would allow in hiring eager, bright faced graduates building
parallel processors. They perhaps knew Genetic Algorithms (the hot
topic in academia whose bloom had long faded in cut-throat industry),
but certainly nothing about the bajillion degrees of freedom in
antenna design. Well, that stack of computers was more a marketing
paper weight than a design producer - I've never seen an independent
headline announcing the dawn of a new age of fractals in Boston. In
fact, it would seem that same NASA program stole their thunder - and
it is still a yawn.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC
w***@yahoo.com
2006-07-13 13:24:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Ring
And YO could beat K1FO by only hudredths of a dB. If he'd had more CPU
power to do more runs per day...
YO7 includes a model of K1FO's 40 element 70 cm Yagi. In YO7, it
measures:

Gain 20.93
F/R 24.01
Z 21.8 + j5.4
SWR 1.0
Gain FOM -0.4 (versus theoretical limit for a given boom length)

In <10k iterations (minutes on a 250 MHz Pentium II), YO7 produced:

21.24
19.54
20.9 + j46.1
1.0
0.0 (I stopped it when it reached this)

You can tweak for Gain, F/R, etc depending on how you weight
performance tradeoffs. Looking at the current distribution, it appears
fewer elements might result in a better design. YO7 does not optimize
for number of elements but it doesn't take much effort to remove
elements and see what happens on the same boom length.

Regarding K1FO's design using Basic on a PDP11, here's Brian's
description:

***********************************************************************************
YO includes an automatic optimizer that can maximize
forward gain and input resistance, and minimize backlobes,
sidelobes, and SWR. The optimizer iteratively adjusts element
lengths and spacings to optimize performance objectives you
specify using parameter tradeoffs you decide. It can perform
both local and global optimization.

YO is calibrated to NEC, the reference-accuracy
Numerical Electromagnetics Code from the Lawrence Livermore
National Laboratory. YO and NEC results normally differ by less
than 0.05 dB in forward gain, a dB or two in F/B, and a couple
ohms in input impedance. You can invoke NEC from within YO to
verify results.

YO's analysis and graphics engines use assembly language
with pipelined floating-point code optimized for Pentium processors.
************************************************************************************

The entire yo.exe program is only 82k (and DSP Blaster is only 16k).
The major change from YO6 to YO7 was the addition of global
optimization, so it will not get stalled on local maxima.

The other thing I must give Brian credit for is his excellent command
of English. I have *never* seen a spelling or grammatical error in any
of his documentation, which is very unusual these days.

73, Bill W4ZV
Tom Ring
2006-07-13 14:58:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@yahoo.com
Post by Tom Ring
And YO could beat K1FO by only hudredths of a dB. If he'd had more CPU
power to do more runs per day...
<snip>
Post by w***@yahoo.com
The other thing I must give Brian credit for is his excellent command
of English. I have *never* seen a spelling or grammatical error in any
of his documentation, which is very unusual these days.
73, Bill W4ZV
Oh, I give Brian lots of credit. He did a fantastic job. And there
were times his developments happened at a blistering pace.

I've had more than a little experience with YO and AO. I was an alpha
tester for him. I once ran an optimization for 3 weeks straight in AO.
Unfortunately it was a dead end design idea for an odd dual band
yagi. I digress.

When I said you could only get hundredths of a dB, I meant it. I did
hundreds of models and thousands of runs trying. You are probably not
optimizing to the specs that an EME'r would desire. Setting the
tradeoffs in YO to get the balance right is touchy, and changes as boom
length increases. You also need to partially or completely turn off
optimization on a few elements for it to do its best job on a long yagi.

The K1FO yagi designs are still the best around in my opinion. For one
reason above the fact that they have great specs - they are a very high
performance design that is easy to reproduce. And when in an array they
do not detune as much as "better" designs.

tom
K0TAR
Tom Ring
2006-07-13 02:21:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Clark
As for automated optimization, NASA spent huge bucks on this stuff to
design twisted paper clips to replace Walt's work of 30 years ago. I
can well bet that license runs pages. If the testimonials to Beezley
are any indicator, the utility of the software is in inverse
proportion to the length of its license.
73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC
I forgot to mention that the K1FO designs referred to were at 432.

tom
K0TAR
Dave
2006-07-13 20:44:00 UTC
Permalink
Richard Clark wrote:

SNIPPED
Post by Richard Clark
Franklin was right about these matters.
As for automated optimization, NASA spent huge bucks on this stuff to
design twisted paper clips to replace Walt's work of 30 years ago. I
can well bet that license runs pages. If the testimonials to Beezley
are any indicator, the utility of the software is in inverse
proportion to the length of its license.
73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC
If I remember the anecdote: A patent guarantees you the right to sue.
Reg Edwards
2006-07-14 05:21:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave
If I remember the anecdote: A patent guarantees you the right to sue.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
-

Is that why lawyers are all in favor of patents?
J. Mc Laughlin
2006-07-17 02:13:35 UTC
Permalink
Dear Reg:

Patents are one of the things that makes a creative people great. In
the Republic's Constitution patents and copyright are listed. Citizens have
thereby a means to increase their wealth and provide employment while having
available the power of the courts to protect their rights.

Not all lawyers are in favor of patents. A few, before they are
cashiered, are against anything that inconveniences their clients, including
laws.

At the other extreme, a few lawyers serving as judges have expressed
disgust at the patent system, supposedly because it rewards the creative.

Please look for some Midwestern wine. It may assist you in recovering
the common sense seen in your early work.

Warm regards, Mac N8TT

--
J. Mc Laughlin; Michigan U.S.A.
Post by Reg Edwards
-
Is that why lawyers are all in favor of patents?
Mike Coslo
2006-07-17 02:25:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Clark
Post by w***@yahoo.com
Brian's revenue flow is not being broken since he no longer has any
revenue flow from it.
Hi Bill,
This is NOT a defense against infringement. The author's rights are
total, and the author's monopoly is total. There is nothing in the
law that suspends those rights or monopoly even in the event of death
of the author, so being out of the market place is a specious
argument.
This, and everything else you've had to offer may in fact be done, I
see folks run red lights frequently too.
Post by w***@yahoo.com
If you read his agreement carefully, it only
prohibits transfer of the software itself.
I've read many agreements, but not this one. If you have a means to
render it faithfully here, then perhaps so; otherwise those others
I've read inform me better.
Richard, I loved the "irony" comment, but there is nothing preventing
the product of a piece of software from being used for something else.
It's quite legal, and that's how "things" work.

Designing an antenna from a piece of software does not mean that the
antenna design belongs to the person who writes the software. That would
mean that the person who did the programming for a CAD program owns the
rights to all the devices designed with it.


- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -
Richard Clark
2006-07-17 03:24:27 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 22:25:30 -0400, Mike Coslo
Post by Mike Coslo
Richard, I loved the "irony" comment, but there is nothing preventing
the product of a piece of software from being used for something else.
It's quite legal, and that's how "things" work.
Hi Mike,

I thought this topic had died a placid death - George Romero (another
PA resident) must have a hand in its continuance....

Anyway, a review of:
http://craphound.com/msftdrm.txt
might give some insight into how industry has created their own rights
from legislation called DRM (Digital Rights Management).

"Thinking" something is legal is not always "how" things work.

The video presentation of this written document, circulating through
Micro$oft for several years, is available at Google Video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1904758034876244745&q=cory+doctorow

You get to hear one of M$'s ringer lawyers try to pin Cory down, and
instead become roadkill. Cory rolled over him like a Lincoln.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC
Mike Coslo
2006-07-17 03:48:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Clark
On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 22:25:30 -0400, Mike Coslo
Post by Mike Coslo
Richard, I loved the "irony" comment, but there is nothing preventing
the product of a piece of software from being used for something else.
It's quite legal, and that's how "things" work.
Hi Mike,
I thought this topic had died a placid death - George Romero (another
PA resident) must have a hand in its continuance....
Sorry about that, Richard - I shudda looked at the date before diving
in (half of a mixed metaphor), that was from the 12th
Post by Richard Clark
http://craphound.com/msftdrm.txt
might give some insight into how industry has created their own rights
from legislation called DRM (Digital Rights Management).
"Thinking" something is legal is not always "how" things work.
Of course not. I've no doubt that a person can be sued for anything,
and nothing can prevent that.
Post by Richard Clark
The video presentation of this written document, circulating through
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1904758034876244745&q=cory+doctorow
You get to hear one of M$'s ringer lawyers try to pin Cory down, and
instead become roadkill. Cory rolled over him like a Lincoln.
Okay, you got even with me, Richard! Sending me hours of interesting
stuff at 11:30 at night! ;^)

- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -
Dave
2006-07-12 22:21:09 UTC
Permalink
***@yahoo.com wrote:

Sorry, I lost the attribution trail.
Post by Richard Clark
Post by w***@yahoo.com
************************************************************************
This software is copyrighted. It has been provided to
you on the condition that you will not sell, rent, lend, give
away, or otherwise transfer the software to others.
************************************************************************
SNIPPED
Post by Richard Clark
Hi Bill,
Strange as it may seem, yes you would be in violation.
Copyright is the author's total monopoly to insure his revenue from
his creation. If you disrupt that revenue flow you are breaking the
law. You said it yourself, he doesn't market to amateurs - rather
professionals who will pay for the LICENSE to use it professionally.
If they choose to do someone a favor, and drop their fee, that is
their hit, not his. He granted them the right, by LICENSE and at a
cost, to lose money if they wish.
There are two additional issues here.

First, a registered copyright is valid for 55 years, it transcends death and
becomes part of the copyright holder's estate. It can be renewed under specified
conditions. So, going out of or changing business does not void the copyright.
By law, the legal penalties begin at $100,000 per violation.

Second, the principle of REASONABLE USAGE is applicable to copyrighted material.
Example: I buy a Copyrighted CD for my personal usage. I am allowed to install
an additional copy on my computer for my personal usage. I am allowed to install
an additional copy on my MP3 player for my personal usage. All subject to the
condition that only one copy will be used at any one time. This does not violate
the copyright law and applicable precedents.

Libraries are allowed to makes partial copies of copyrighted material. It is the
REASONABLE PRESUMPTION that libraries provide data. Universities can make
partial copies of copyrighted material for academic classroom and research
usage. Etc.

The legal burden for proof of REASONABLE USAGE rests with the individual or
institution who purchases the license.
Mike Coslo
2006-07-17 02:55:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@yahoo.com
Post by Richard Clark
Post by w***@yahoo.com
Post by Ben Jackson
Post by w***@yahoo.com
Unfortunately K6STI no longer markets his software to hams (due to
software piracy issues). Hopefully you can find someone with a copy
who can optimize your initial results.
Careful, you're pegging my irony meter.
************************************************************************
This software is copyrighted. It has been provided to
you on the condition that you will not sell, rent, lend, give
away, or otherwise transfer the software to others.
************************************************************************
As I read it, there is no problem if I use it to optimize a model
for someone else. I'm NOT volunteering to do that however.
Hi Bill,
Strange as it may seem, yes you would be in violation.
Copyright is the author's total monopoly to insure his revenue from
his creation. If you disrupt that revenue flow you are breaking the
law. You said it yourself, he doesn't market to amateurs - rather
professionals who will pay for the LICENSE to use it professionally.
If they choose to do someone a favor, and drop their fee, that is
their hit, not his. He granted them the right, by LICENSE and at a
cost, to lose money if they wish.
Hi Richard,
1. I paid for the non-professional version of K6STI's software while he
WAS selling to amateurs. If you read his agreement carefully, it only
prohibits transfer of the software itself.
2. I am not sure Brian markets YO to professionals any longer. There
was apparently one well-known antenna manufacturer who bought his
non-professional version and used it to design commercial antennas. I
understand that this contributed to Brian's decision to exit the
amateur business, but the main reason was someone in Europe hacked his
RITTY program and posted it publicly.
I don't get it. A professional uses a piece of software designed for
non-professionals to design antennas, so the writer of the software
stops offering the software to the non-professionals? Seems backwards.
Post by w***@yahoo.com
3. If I were to do a gratis optimization for someone today, that would
not violate the original license (i.e. transfer of the software itself)
and Brian's revenue flow is not being broken since he no longer has any
revenue flow from it. If a professional consultant were involved, they
would have to show they sustained actual damages (i.e. lost business)
which might be difficult to prove (not to mention the time and cost of
doing so).
You are correct of course, but I don't understand the basic premise.

Let us use say, Mathcad instead of YO. Mathcad sells it's software with
the full knowledge that people are going to do things with it. Like
design things, and make money with them - or research dollars. It is
exactly what the program is designed to do. Mathcad's authors do not own
or have copyright to those things designed with it.

If the gentleman gets angry because people use his software, that is
his right, but it seems odd.
Post by w***@yahoo.com
Post by Richard Clark
Hence the irony meter being pegged.
No, that's the too-much-time-on-their-hands troll meter pegging. :-)
It's a shame the piracy issue drove K6STI from the ham business. He is
truly a genius and I love his AO, YO and DSP Blaster programs. I
believe he's now doing something in the audiophile business...their
gain and our loss.
Audiophiles!!!!! OMG!

Did ya ever see those rocks for audiophiles that are supposed to make
their sound systems sound better?....

or

http://www.musicdirect.com/products/detail.asp?sku=ABEDDBEAM

and:

http://www.musicdirect.com/products/detail.asp?sku=AAILUMINATOR

and of course:

http://www.musicdirect.com/products/detail.asp?sku=ACARCD


rant off


Oh well, as you can see, its an easier group to please....


Sorry for taking this OT thread even further OT...


- 73 de Mike KB3EIA
Yuri Blanarovich
2006-07-18 01:47:35 UTC
Permalink
If the gentleman gets angry because people use his software, that is his
right, but it seems odd.
No, it is the case where they made copies of his software and offered it for
free on the web site.

Yuri, K3BU
Reg Edwards
2006-07-11 19:46:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by JC
Thanks for help, I think I wrongly explained my problem, here is the
1/ I design an antenna, for instance a 3 el 20m beam.
2/ I enter into EZNEC wires dimensions, spacing, height, source.....
3/ EZNEC calculates gain, F/B, SWR....and results are acceptable.
4/ Now let's suppose my objectives are max F/B as I have a QRM
source
Post by JC
opposed to my favourite transmitting direction and SWR< 1.5 on a given
frequency range as my transceiver is very SWR sensitive and I can't use an
antenna tuner.
I accept changing wire lengths and spacing but not boom length.
Is there a way to have EZNEC, or another software, doing automatic
iterations until it reaches the best F/B-SWR compromise ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------

Let us see what would be involved if you had EZNEC and had to do
everything else yourself the hard way. You already have a crude,
satisfactory design for 3 elements, wire lengths, wire diameters,
spacing, height, etc.

Only the boom length and presumably wire diameters and height are
fixed and you wish to optimise everything else for maximum F/B ratio
and minimum SWR.

Everything else comprises : 3 lengths and 1 spacing. This makes a
total of 4 independent variables.

You now vary the first variable over a range of say 4 increments,
keeping all the other variables constant and keeping a record of the 4
results of F/B ratio and SWR

You then vary the second variable over a range of 4 increments,
keeping all the other variables constant and keeping a record of the
results.

You continue to do this until you have done all possible combinations
of the 4 variables. You will have a 4-dimension array of results of
F/B ratio and SWR, making a total of 512 observations.

Now search the observations until you can find the maximum of F/B
ratio combined with minimum of SWR

If it looks as though the minimum SWR or the maximum F/B ratio lies
outside the 4-dimensional array then shift the variables in an
appropriate direction and repeat the whole procedure until a max and
min are found.

The trouble with modelling programs is you have to enter element
lengths and spacing via the keyboard. It would be nice to have a
program to do it for you. I am unfamiliar with the situation. Such a
program might exist - one which outputs F/B ratio and SWR.
----
Reg.
K7ITM
2006-07-11 20:03:56 UTC
Permalink
As I just posted in another followup, MultiNEC (add-on for EZNec and
other NEC programs) takes care of just this sort of thing for you, and
takes much of the tedium out of the process. As an Excel spreadsheet,
it does require that you have Excel on the computer you're using.

Cheers,
Tom
Post by JC
Post by JC
Thanks for help, I think I wrongly explained my problem, here is the
1/ I design an antenna, for instance a 3 el 20m beam.
2/ I enter into EZNEC wires dimensions, spacing, height, source.....
3/ EZNEC calculates gain, F/B, SWR....and results are acceptable.
4/ Now let's suppose my objectives are max F/B as I have a QRM
source
Post by JC
opposed to my favourite transmitting direction and SWR< 1.5 on a
given
Post by JC
frequency range as my transceiver is very SWR sensitive and I can't
use an
Post by JC
antenna tuner.
I accept changing wire lengths and spacing but not boom length.
Is there a way to have EZNEC, or another software, doing automatic
iterations until it reaches the best F/B-SWR compromise ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------
Let us see what would be involved if you had EZNEC and had to do
everything else yourself the hard way. You already have a crude,
satisfactory design for 3 elements, wire lengths, wire diameters,
spacing, height, etc.
Only the boom length and presumably wire diameters and height are
fixed and you wish to optimise everything else for maximum F/B ratio
and minimum SWR.
Everything else comprises : 3 lengths and 1 spacing. This makes a
total of 4 independent variables.
You now vary the first variable over a range of say 4 increments,
keeping all the other variables constant and keeping a record of the 4
results of F/B ratio and SWR
You then vary the second variable over a range of 4 increments,
keeping all the other variables constant and keeping a record of the
results.
You continue to do this until you have done all possible combinations
of the 4 variables. You will have a 4-dimension array of results of
F/B ratio and SWR, making a total of 512 observations.
Now search the observations until you can find the maximum of F/B
ratio combined with minimum of SWR
If it looks as though the minimum SWR or the maximum F/B ratio lies
outside the 4-dimensional array then shift the variables in an
appropriate direction and repeat the whole procedure until a max and
min are found.
The trouble with modelling programs is you have to enter element
lengths and spacing via the keyboard. It would be nice to have a
program to do it for you. I am unfamiliar with the situation. Such a
program might exist - one which outputs F/B ratio and SWR.
----
Reg.
K7ITM
2006-07-11 20:00:40 UTC
Permalink
As mentioned in another posting, YO (Yagi Optimizer) would be a good
bet. Strange that piracy caused the author to quit offering it
completely; seems like any sales are better than none, and not selling
a program only makes piracy more likely, not less.

But check out the EZNEC co-pilot program from Dan Maguire, AC6LA, at
http://www.ac6la.com/. That page lists several of his offerings; it's
MultiNEC that you'll be most interested in. Though it may not
completely automate the optimization, it should make the process much
easier and faster for you.

Cheers,
Tom
Post by JC
Thanks for help, I think I wrongly explained my problem, here is the
1/ I design an antenna, for instance a 3 el 20m beam.
2/ I enter into EZNEC wires dimensions, spacing, height, source.....
3/ EZNEC calculates gain, F/B, SWR....and results are acceptable.
4/ Now let's suppose my objectives are max F/B as I have a QRM source
opposed to my favourite transmitting direction and SWR< 1.5 on a given
frequency range as my transceiver is very SWR sensitive and I can't use an
antenna tuner.
I accept changing wire lengths and spacing but not boom length.
Is there a way to have EZNEC, or another software, doing automatic
iterations until it reaches the best F/B-SWR compromise ?
JC - F8ND
Post by JC
Post by JC
Is there a software which can design an antenna (like EZNEC or
similar )
Post by JC
then allows to automatically optimize its dimensions according to
given
Post by JC
requirements: max gain, F/B, min swr... and accepted dimensional
parameters
Post by JC
changes: boom length, spacing....
JC
----------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
Dear JC,
You don't need software. What you describe is non-existent anyway.
What you want is a long experienced antenna designer who can be
permanently engaged on your behalf. There are very few of such
creatures about.
You will have to be numerically quite specific about particular
problems. And even then you will get solutions which, with luck, are
probably only in the right ball-park.
On the other hand, ball-park solutions are perfectly satisfactory. In
the nature of events, no-one has ever solved an antenna problem which
is other than in a ball-park. Fortunately, antennas work quite well
even when in the wrong ball-park.
Download a free copy of EZNEC and in a few months time you may have
solved your first complicated, specific problem. As time goes on, you
will become more adept and there will be no need to engage a long
experienced antenna designer. You will have become one youself and
can offer your services for hire.
If you have a specific problem you may, if you are lucky, find a
computer program written by someone who has already solved it. But its
highly unlikely to be exactly the same problem. It will be in a
somewhat different ball-park.
Optimisation is out! You will have to contend with whatever you can
get your hands on. What's been done before. Take it or leave it!
----
Reg.
Brian Howie
2006-07-11 20:05:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by JC
Thanks for help, I think I wrongly explained my problem, here is the
1/ I design an antenna, for instance a 3 el 20m beam.
2/ I enter into EZNEC wires dimensions, spacing, height, source.....
3/ EZNEC calculates gain, F/B, SWR....and results are acceptable.
4/ Now let's suppose my objectives are max F/B as I have a QRM source
opposed to my favourite transmitting direction and SWR< 1.5 on a given
frequency range as my transceiver is very SWR sensitive and I can't use an
antenna tuner.
I accept changing wire lengths and spacing but not boom length.
Is there a way to have EZNEC, or another software, doing automatic
iterations until it reaches the best F/B-SWR compromise ?
MMANA does what you want and it's free.

http://mmhamsoft.amateur-radio.ca/ and I see there's a new release out.

Read this too. http://g7rau.demon.co.uk/sm5bsz/

Brian GM4DIJ
--
Brian Howie
Ron
2006-07-11 20:37:59 UTC
Permalink
I downloaded MMANA but I can't seem to unzip it. What program will
unzip it ? I have WinZip 7.0

Thanks
Ron WA0KDS
Post by Brian Howie
Post by JC
Thanks for help, I think I wrongly explained my problem, here is the
1/ I design an antenna, for instance a 3 el 20m beam.
2/ I enter into EZNEC wires dimensions, spacing, height, source.....
3/ EZNEC calculates gain, F/B, SWR....and results are acceptable.
4/ Now let's suppose my objectives are max F/B as I have a QRM source
opposed to my favourite transmitting direction and SWR< 1.5 on a given
frequency range as my transceiver is very SWR sensitive and I can't use an
antenna tuner.
I accept changing wire lengths and spacing but not boom length.
Is there a way to have EZNEC, or another software, doing automatic
iterations until it reaches the best F/B-SWR compromise ?
MMANA does what you want and it's free.
http://mmhamsoft.amateur-radio.ca/ and I see there's a new release out.
Read this too. http://g7rau.demon.co.uk/sm5bsz/
Brian GM4DIJ
Ron
2006-07-11 21:47:48 UTC
Permalink
Ron wrote:

I downloaded MMANA but I can't seem to unzip it. What program will
unzip it ? I have WinZip 7.0

Thanks
Ron WA0KDS
Ron
2006-07-11 21:48:51 UTC
Permalink
Ron wrote:

I downloaded MMANA but I can't seem to unzip it. What program will
unzip it ? I have WinZip 7.0

Thanks
Ron WA0KDS
K7ITM
2006-07-11 21:58:36 UTC
Permalink
FWIW, FilZip unzipped it fine: one file, MMANGAL_Setup.exe. It's
possible that the zip file became corrupted when you downloaded it,
too.

Cheers,
Tom
Post by Ron
I downloaded MMANA but I can't seem to unzip it. What program will
unzip it ? I have WinZip 7.0
Thanks
Ron WA0KDS
Post by Brian Howie
Post by JC
Thanks for help, I think I wrongly explained my problem, here is the
1/ I design an antenna, for instance a 3 el 20m beam.
2/ I enter into EZNEC wires dimensions, spacing, height, source.....
3/ EZNEC calculates gain, F/B, SWR....and results are acceptable.
4/ Now let's suppose my objectives are max F/B as I have a QRM source
opposed to my favourite transmitting direction and SWR< 1.5 on a given
frequency range as my transceiver is very SWR sensitive and I can't use an
antenna tuner.
I accept changing wire lengths and spacing but not boom length.
Is there a way to have EZNEC, or another software, doing automatic
iterations until it reaches the best F/B-SWR compromise ?
MMANA does what you want and it's free.
http://mmhamsoft.amateur-radio.ca/ and I see there's a new release out.
Read this too. http://g7rau.demon.co.uk/sm5bsz/
Brian GM4DIJ
Reg Edwards
2006-07-11 22:41:43 UTC
Permalink
Why on Earth anybody zips up software these days I can't imagine.
K7ITM
2006-07-11 23:30:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reg Edwards
Why on Earth anybody zips up software these days I can't imagine.
I thought you'd have a better imagination than that, Reg.

o To reduce the size of the transferred file.
o To package a set of files together, e.g. documentation and sample
files along with a program, or a set of related programs.
o To secure it; it may not be very robust security but would
discourage
the casual user.

For the present example, though, the benefit is marginal at best.

Cheers,
Tom
Arie
2006-07-12 10:22:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Howie
MMANA does what you want and it's free.
However, note that because MMANA being a MiniNec based program, when
using none vertical elements below 0.2 wavelengths accuracy rapidly
drops. If you'd like to optimize on (lower) HF, a Nec based program is
prefered

Furthermore, I don't think optimization is out. But, if it should be
so, it still will learn you very much about the effect of antenna
dimension changing on antenna performance.

And last but not least, because of being freeware, experimenting with
MMANA or 4nec2
[http://home.ict.nl/~arivoors/] will cost you nothing (besides a
little studying), weather you would like to use a traditional optimizer
of a genetic algorithm based optimizer.

Arie.
GerryG
2006-07-22 21:44:09 UTC
Permalink
Sound like why I bought a copy of MultiNEC. The Excel interface allows me to
"sweep" the values of any parameters. I start coarse, and 2-3 sweeps allow me
to narrow down and optimize f/b and swr. By writing some Excel extensions, you
could have this done semi-automatically.

I've done this for some circuit design programs, where they look up and use
standard component values.

Howsoever you do it, remember to check your final figures for sensitivities by
putting in reasonable measurement tolerances, or you may end up with a
theoretical result that just won't happen.

Gerry K7ATS
Post by JC
Thanks for help, I think I wrongly explained my problem, here is the
1/ I design an antenna, for instance a 3 el 20m beam.
2/ I enter into EZNEC wires dimensions, spacing, height, source.....
3/ EZNEC calculates gain, F/B, SWR....and results are acceptable.
4/ Now let's suppose my objectives are max F/B as I have a QRM source
opposed to my favourite transmitting direction and SWR< 1.5 on a given
frequency range as my transceiver is very SWR sensitive and I can't use an
antenna tuner.
I accept changing wire lengths and spacing but not boom length.
Is there a way to have EZNEC, or another software, doing automatic
iterations until it reaches the best F/B-SWR compromise ?
JC - F8ND
Dave Oldridge
2006-07-12 06:05:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by JC
Is there a software which can design an antenna (like EZNEC or similar
) then allows to automatically optimize its dimensions according to
given requirements: max gain, F/B, min swr... and accepted dimensional
parameters changes: boom length, spacing....
JC
http://mmhamsoft.amateur-radio.ca/files/programs/MMANA-GAL-65.zip
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
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