Indoor Counterpoise For Random Wire Antenna

[Irv Finkleman]

I am using a random wire antenna which runs outdoors through a hole in a
window frame.

I do not have access to any good RF grounding system and plan to use an
indoor
counterpoise wire from the ground connection on the tuner (MFJ-949E). I have
a
nice role of #18 wire, the end is connected to the tuner, and it is my
intention to
unroll it along the floor through my suite until such time as it is properly
tuned.

MY QUESTION IS - How can I tell when I have unrolled the right amount of
wire
for the frequency in use. I know it will not be 1/4 wave, and that it
should be less.
From what I understand, when it is adjusted properly I should not have any
hot
RF burning my lips from the mike. Checking it with my lips is not what I
call
a desireable means of testing, and being single I cannot call my wife to
test it
for me. I'd like to find a better way and hence my questions.

I believe (according to what theory I have learned) that the tuner chassis
would
be hot with RF, with the amount of RF becoming less and less as the
counterpoise
wire approaches the proper length. If this is true would a simple RF sniffer
tell me?
I can rig one up fairly easily.

OR - What would I be looking for using my MFJ-259B SWR Analyzer? I expect
what it would show readings similar to a dipole with resonance at the
operating
frequency and an impedance (resistive) of somewhere in the order of 60 ohms.
plus or minus -- is this a correct assumption?

OR -- does anyone on the group have any suggestions that will tell me when
the
system is properly adjusted -- the simpler the better!

Once I have found how to do this, I can put tape markings on the roll of
counterpoise wire to show the appropriate length for each band or narrow
band of frequencies in which I will be operating.

I have already tested the hole -- it is just a little less than 1/4 inch
diamater,
but that seems to be enough to let both sidebands through -- I carefully
tested
that using AM which proves that two sidebands can fit through the hole at
the
same time, which allows me to further assume that either the upper or lower
sidebands should squeeze through easily! :-)

Thanks in advance for any assistance you can provide in this matter.

Irv VE6BP

On the air finally but afraid to get to close to the mike! I may have
to use rubber gloves and teflon lip gloss!

[Sal]

"Irv Finkleman" <***@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:avFlr.12829$***@newsfe01.iad...


< snip >

I should not have any hot
RF burning my lips from the mike. Checking it with my lips is not what I
call
a desireable means of testing, and being single I cannot call my wife to
test it
for me. I'd like to find a better way and hence my questions.

Since you started this whimsical line of reasoning, you dare not object:
Buy a plastic microphone. Har-har-HAR-dee-har-har! [Thanks to Ralph
Kramden]

But seriously folks ...

You do have a coaxial cable from the radio to the tuner. Choke the
bejabbers out of it. Either wind the coax itself into one or more physical
coil(s) of the right proportions or use the W2DU method.

This will be useful for the former approach:
Loading Image...
It illustrates that no single coil really does it.

... and this for the latter:
Loading Image...
Although your application doesn't involve using beads as a balun, per the
illustration, the broad approach is the same: blocking common mode currents.

"Sal"
who chokes his cables and gets no shocks

I believe (according to what theory I have learned) that the tuner chassis
would
be hot with RF, with the amount of RF becoming less and less as the
counterpoise
wire approaches the proper length. If this is true would a simple RF
sniffer tell me?
I can rig one up fairly easily.
OR - What would I be looking for using my MFJ-259B SWR Analyzer? I expect
what it would show readings similar to a dipole with resonance at the
operating
frequency and an impedance (resistive) of somewhere in the order of 60 ohms.
plus or minus -- is this a correct assumption?
OR -- does anyone on the group have any suggestions that will tell me when
the
system is properly adjusted -- the simpler the better!
Once I have found how to do this, I can put tape markings on the roll of
counterpoise wire to show the appropriate length for each band or narrow
band of frequencies in which I will be operating.
I have already tested the hole -- it is just a little less than 1/4 inch
diamater,
but that seems to be enough to let both sidebands through -- I carefully
tested
that using AM which proves that two sidebands can fit through the hole at
the
same time, which allows me to further assume that either the upper or lower
sidebands should squeeze through easily! :-)
Thanks in advance for any assistance you can provide in this matter.
Irv VE6BP
On the air finally but afraid to get to close to the mike! I may have
to use rubber gloves and teflon lip gloss!

[Roger]

Irv,

I think you will find it difficult to tune up using a MFJ-949E, random wire antenna and a roll of wire run around your apartment. You will probably end up with a "hot mike" most of the time. Even if you get it all tuned up on one frequency as soon as you QSY to a different frequency you will have to change the counterpoise wire length. Finding the right lengths for different frequencies and coiling/uncoiling the wire each time you QSY will get old fast.

I have a better solution for you. Buy an MFJ artificial ground so that you can use a fixed length of wire under the carpet and tune the counterpoise from the operating position. MFJ makes a standalone product called the MFJ-931 or a tuner that includes the artificial ground - MFJ-934. Here are some links to these products:

http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Product.php?productid=MFJ-931
http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Product.php?productid=MFJ-934

Hope things work out for you and that you get back on the air in the near future. Let us know how things work out for you.

Roger

[Bob]

Post by Irv Finkleman
I am using a random wire antenna which runs outdoors through a hole in a
window frame.
I do not have access to any good RF grounding system and plan to use an
indoor
counterpoise wire from the ground connection on the tuner (MFJ-949E). I have
a
nice role of #18 wire, the end is connected to the tuner, and it is my
intention to
unroll it along the floor through my suite until such time as it is properly
tuned.
MY QUESTION IS - How can I tell when I have unrolled the right amount of
wire
for the frequency in use.

I once had the little B&W vertical in a 3rd story apartment window. To
tune it, I used an SWR meter and simply unrolled my single
counterpoise wire across the rug until the swr was 1:1 for the band in
use. The counterpoise was on a wire spool. I never actually measured
the counterpoise length -- I simply found 40 meters meant the wire
went from the bedroom window to the kitchen.

bob
k5qwg

Post by Irv Finkleman
I know it will not be 1/4 wave, and that it
should be less.
From what I understand, when it is adjusted properly I should not have any
hot
RF burning my lips from the mike. Checking it with my lips is not what I
call
a desireable means of testing, and being single I cannot call my wife to
test it
for me. I'd like to find a better way and hence my questions.
I believe (according to what theory I have learned) that the tuner chassis
would
be hot with RF, with the amount of RF becoming less and less as the
counterpoise
wire approaches the proper length. If this is true would a simple RF sniffer
tell me?
I can rig one up fairly easily.
OR - What would I be looking for using my MFJ-259B SWR Analyzer? I expect
what it would show readings similar to a dipole with resonance at the
operating
frequency and an impedance (resistive) of somewhere in the order of 60 ohms.
plus or minus -- is this a correct assumption?
OR -- does anyone on the group have any suggestions that will tell me when
the
system is properly adjusted -- the simpler the better!
Once I have found how to do this, I can put tape markings on the roll of
counterpoise wire to show the appropriate length for each band or narrow
band of frequencies in which I will be operating.
I have already tested the hole -- it is just a little less than 1/4 inch
diamater,
but that seems to be enough to let both sidebands through -- I carefully
tested
that using AM which proves that two sidebands can fit through the hole at
the
same time, which allows me to further assume that either the upper or lower
sidebands should squeeze through easily! :-)
Thanks in advance for any assistance you can provide in this matter.
Irv VE6BP
On the air finally but afraid to get to close to the mike! I may have
to use rubber gloves and teflon lip gloss!

[Irv Finkleman]

Thanks Sal, Roger, and Bob as well as
the many others who have not yet replied
-- actually my mic is plastic.

I truly appreciate your assistance, but I think
I really need to explain my rationale somewhat.

The real intent of my questioning is to provide
a counterpoise system whereas the tuner does
not just have an unbalance by simply feeding
the random wire, but a balance achieved
whereby the counterpoise connected to the
tuner acts as the other (missing) half of the
unbalanced system, thereby balancing it just
as the ground image does with a quarter wave
antenna. Does this make sense? If not, wait till
you read further about MFJ and the push and
pull explanation.

I have two tuners at my disposal -- one is an
MFJ-949E Deluxe Versa Tuner II -- a common T
match configuration. The other is an MFJ-1625
Window/Balcony Mount Antenna which contains
matching circuitry and also a loading coil
for tuning the counterpoise wire or wires.
I hope to use the 949E, if I can resolve the
matter of knowing when the counterpoise
is properly adjusted. It is this matter that
I am trying to resolve to my satisfaction. I
could equally use the MFJ-1625 which is
just an MFJ-1623 with a 12 ft whip and
an 80m loading coil.

I'm fairly well read on antennas, but still my
knowledge of this monumental subject is very
limited i.e. to me a Smith Chart is something
belonging to a hospital patient named Smith.
I sort of understand the concept of the
counterpoise acting as the missing half of the
system, but have difficulty putting it into words.


MFJ, in the MFJ-1625 Manual say....

QUOTE
It is always important to have a good RF ground,
provided by the counterpoise, when using any
whip or long-wire antenna. This is because the
MFJ-1623 tuner needs something to "push"
against in order to force current into the antenna.
If a good RF ground is not available, RF will usually
find its way back into the power line (RFI),
transmitter audio circuits (RF feedback),
or the operator (RF burns). Water pipes provide
good dc and ac safety grounds, but they are
often inadequate for RF grounding because they
are long single conductors. RF grounds
require large "spread out" surfaces with direct
multiple connections to the equipment ground
point. Water pipes, heating ducts, or multiple
ground rods may work (especially if they are all
connected together with jumper wires), but the
best RF grounds are radial systems or
multi-wire counterpoises.
UNQUOTE

I have to admit that this explanation contains
terms like long-wire antenna used in what I think
might be confusing or ill-defined ways, but the
idea of push and pull of antenna current feels
right. If this is not already confusing, it is the
MFJ-1625 Manual, but the tuner is an MFJ-1623.
Many hams use the term MFJ as standing
for 'Mighty Fine Junk', and at times I agree, but
I do have good skills as a technicial and find that
a little resoldering and tightening of ground nuts
turns it into somewhat better than any of the
homebrew or modifications I have ever put on
the air. I no longer have a house, shack, workshop,
and tower, etc,etc,etc and am now working with
largely storebought items and limited space.

I have considered a cabin in the mountains where
I would not interfere with anyone around, but where
would I find one with built in housekeeping and
meals? Just the expense of the extension cord alone
makes me shudder.

I am not as concerned about a case of 'rf lip' as I am
about stray RF causing possible problems with the
neighbours on all sides of me, with all my electronic
toys such as computers, DVD players, the local
fire-alarm system and other such things. The last
thing I want to do is draw attention to the fact that I
am running a ham radio station from my suite until
I know I am not causing any problems.

Thusly, my goal is to provide myself with a first rate
RF ground system, entirely contained within my suite,
in order that I do not wake up at night with the fire
alarms set off and great numbers of disturbed
residents gathered around pointing at me and saying
'Ham! Ham! For Shame! For Shame!' and the Residents
Council having special meetings to decide how to deal
with me. They already think I'm crazy -- and I may be
somewhat, but I don't want to make matters worse!

So, having herein explained my rational, lets see what
help I can get in the way of producing the ideal indoor
low-cost non-radiating counterpoise radial system.

Actually, I have lots of wire for the radials, the
tuner contains a loading coil to assist in tuning
the counterpoise, and my big concern is how do
I determine when the counterpoise is operating
effectively. The metering system in the tuner should
reach a peak and subside on either side of the
correct counterpoise tuning point, and what I
really need to know is how to determine when the
stray RF is minimized if not eliminated.

I have to explain that I do all this in a somewhat
humorous manner, I find all my predicaments funny,
but then I brought myself into them and this is the
only way, short of outright denial, of dealing with them.

You have probably already noticed that I am a
man of few words!

Irv VE6BP

P.S. In a previous topic where the matter of electrons
escaping from the end of the antenna was hotly
debated, I have solved that problem by forming a
wee loop at the end of the antenna, thereby taking
any of those loose electrons and feeding them back
into the wire! I used the loop and a nylon cable tie
to fasten the end of theantenna into the tree which
supports most of it, thereby eliminating the cost of
a ceramic insulator and it's accompanying end effect.
I'm sure Tesla and Marconi could have used some of
my simple practical solutions like this one, and perhaps
negated the necessity of long discussions re electrons
escaping from antennas.

Post by Irv Finkleman
I am using a random wire antenna which runs outdoors through a hole in a
window frame.
I do not have access to any good RF grounding system and plan to use an
indoor
counterpoise wire from the ground connection on the tuner (MFJ-949E). I
have a
nice role of #18 wire, the end is connected to the tuner, and it is my
intention to
unroll it along the floor through my suite until such time as it is
properly tuned.
MY QUESTION IS - How can I tell when I have unrolled the right amount of
wire
for the frequency in use. I know it will not be 1/4 wave, and that it
should be less.
From what I understand, when it is adjusted properly I should not have any
hot
RF burning my lips from the mike. Checking it with my lips is not what I
call
a desireable means of testing, and being single I cannot call my wife to
test it
for me. I'd like to find a better way and hence my questions.
I believe (according to what theory I have learned) that the tuner chassis
would
be hot with RF, with the amount of RF becoming less and less as the
counterpoise
wire approaches the proper length. If this is true would a simple RF
sniffer tell me?
I can rig one up fairly easily.
OR - What would I be looking for using my MFJ-259B SWR Analyzer? I expect
what it would show readings similar to a dipole with resonance at the
operating
frequency and an impedance (resistive) of somewhere in the order of 60 ohms.
plus or minus -- is this a correct assumption?
OR -- does anyone on the group have any suggestions that will tell me when
the
system is properly adjusted -- the simpler the better!
Once I have found how to do this, I can put tape markings on the roll of
counterpoise wire to show the appropriate length for each band or narrow
band of frequencies in which I will be operating.
I have already tested the hole -- it is just a little less than 1/4 inch
diamater,
but that seems to be enough to let both sidebands through -- I carefully
tested
that using AM which proves that two sidebands can fit through the hole at
the
same time, which allows me to further assume that either the upper or lower
sidebands should squeeze through easily! :-)
Thanks in advance for any assistance you can provide in this matter.
Irv VE6BP
On the air finally but afraid to get to close to the mike! I may have
to use rubber gloves and teflon lip gloss!

[Sal]

Post by Irv Finkleman
The real intent of my questioning is to provide
a counterpoise system whereas the tuner does
not just have an unbalance by simply feeding
the random wire, but a balance achieved
whereby the counterpoise connected to the
tuner acts as the other (missing) half of the
unbalanced system, thereby balancing it just
as the ground image does with a quarter wave
antenna. Does this make sense?

Yes and perhaps I have a workable idea to get there.

First, an assumption: Your long wire out the window frame has only a short
run to the tuner. That is, the tuner is on the same wall as the window
frame and is near the window. How'm I doing so far?

Along that same wall, stretch out a heavy piece of straight wire -- can be
insulated but you'll cut through the insulation as needed -- from corner to
corner. It's like a workbench ground bus but it's not grounded, per se.

Attach the tuner ground to it.

Buy two (maybe more) locking metal tape rules. Craftsman, Lever-lock. At
the zero ends, securely bolt or clamp the metal tape rules to the ends of
the heavy wire in each corner. Yes, you're ruining the tape rules by
mutilating the ends but we know you're desperate. Courage, man!

Stretch out the tape rules until their lengths become whatever you need for
a workable counterpoise, recalling that HF antenna elements (and
counterpoises) do not need to run in perfect straight lines. Zig-zagging is
your friend in a confined space. Even go up the wall(s) in the far corners.

This method, if it works, has a bonus. Once the lengths are established for
each band, the exact lengths can be eyeballed directly off the tape rules
and noted. Alternatively, just scrawl band numbers on the walls. (Hi-hi)

"Sal"
Never one to let anything serve only a single purpose.

[Irv Finkleman]

Post by Sal

Post by Irv Finkleman
The real intent of my questioning is to provide
a counterpoise system whereas the tuner does
not just have an unbalance by simply feeding
the random wire, but a balance achieved
whereby the counterpoise connected to the
tuner acts as the other (missing) half of the
unbalanced system, thereby balancing it just
as the ground image does with a quarter wave
antenna. Does this make sense?

Yes and perhaps I have a workable idea to get there.
First, an assumption: Your long wire out the window frame has only a
short run to the tuner. That is, the tuner is on the same wall as the
window frame and is near the window. How'm I doing so far?

Bang on Sal -- the tuner is located about 18 inches from where the
wire comes through the window, but on the floor along the wall
with the window is the baseboard hot water heating unit so I can't
really run anything on the floor along that wall. Similarly, although I
understand your tape measure idea, there is a simpler solution
which I tested last night and worked perfectly.

I arrived at a solution through the following note from Bob, K5QWG
who wrote:

"I once had the little B&W vertical in a 3rd story apartment window. To
tune it, I used an SWR meter and simply unrolled my single
counterpoise wire across the rug until the swr was 1:1 for the band in
use. The counterpoise was on a wire spool. I never actually measured
the counterpoise length -- I simply found 40 meters meant the wire
went from the bedroom window to the kitchen."

I thought it made perfect sense and even downloaded the instruction
manual for the B&W AP-10 Windowsill Antenna which told me the
same thing as Bob wrote -- and it worked perfectly.

I too used a spool of wire connected to the ground post on the
MFJ-949E tuner, and unrolled it away from the tuner and antenna,
across the floor and through the room. At that point I tuned up on
frequency, adjusted the tuner for minimum SWR (nearly 1 to 1)
and that was that! It worked beautifully.

Your idea with the tape measures would have worked as well,
but would have been a little more expensive and possibly
unworkable due to the heater. Instead, I simply put a tape
marker on the counterpoise wire at the length where it worked
well on the band tested (80M). Now, when I want to operate
all I have to do is unroll the spool to the tape marker and
Presto! I can go on the air! Of course I have noted the tuner
settings, and will also add further tape markers on the
counterpoise wire for the different bands, and note the
tuner settings as well.

My next step may be to cut counterpoise wires for each
band of operation and permanently lay them along the
wall this negating the need to roll and unroll the spool
of wire each time.

With time there may be some minor changes. For instance
how far across the bands can I tune without any significant
change in SWR. I might also try putting a loading coil
in the counterpoise line at the tuner end so that I can fine
tune the counterpoise length electrically. I will build up
a little RF sniffer just to check for local stray rf but
that should no longer be a problem.

I could use the MFJ-1625 tuner which has a built in
switched coil to adjust the counterpoise, but it only has
a current meter, not an swr bridge. The MFJ-949E
tuner has swr metering. Therefore if the loading coil
for the counterpoise works, I can use the 949E and
sell (albeit at a small loss hopefully) the MFJ-1625
set complete to some ham who is able to operate
using the intended setup for the 1625. It is
an excellent system, but because of all the metal in
my building which negates indoor operation,
and the inability to put the whip out of the window
due to physical limitations existing in my suite,
I cannot use it. I had not considered the limittions
in my situation prior to buying the 1625 but it was
worth the try. I might even keep it (I may have
to if I can't sell it) for portable use when I go
fishing. It would be an excellent setup on a picnic
table or from a tent. Again, time will tell,

In any event, A BIG THANK You to all who helped in
this discussion -- I can now get on the air and as soon
as I have things tested and tidied up I hope to meet
you there.

Irv, VE6BP

[Szczepan Bialek]

Post by Irv Finkleman
MFJ, in the MFJ-1625 Manual say....
QUOTE
It is always important to have a good RF ground,
provided by the counterpoise, when using any
whip or long-wire antenna. This is because the
MFJ-1623 tuner needs something to "push"
against in order to force current into the antenna.
If a good RF ground is not available, RF will usually
find its way back into the power line (RFI),
transmitter audio circuits (RF feedback),
or the operator (RF burns). Water pipes provide
good dc and ac safety grounds, but they are
often inadequate for RF grounding because they
are long single conductors.

You wrote: " I have a nice role of #18 wire, the end is connected to the
tuner, and it is my
intention to unroll it along the floor through my suite until such time as
it is properly
tuned."

So it will be: "a long single conductors"

Post by Irv Finkleman
RF grounds
require large "spread out" surfaces with direct
multiple connections to the equipment ground
point. Water pipes, heating ducts, or multiple
ground rods may work (especially if they are all
connected together with jumper wires), but the
best RF grounds are radial systems or
multi-wire counterpoises.

So you should not unroll it but have "all connected together with jumper
wires".

Jta is the same opinion: "You shouldn't need to unroll the wire at all since
you're using a tuner.
Just hook it up and tune away."
The hook = jumped wire.

Post by Irv Finkleman
P.S. In a previous topic where the matter of electrons
escaping from the end of the antenna was hotly
debated,
I'm sure Tesla and Marconi could have used some of
my simple practical solutions like this one, and perhaps
negated the necessity of long discussions re electrons
escaping from antennas.

There was also Sir Oliver Lodge. He demonstrated the escaping of electrons
from the antinodes (see Fig. 2):

He also discovered that HF do not like the long conductors;
"The electrical charge stored in the Leyden jars could flow either through
the very low dc resistance path provided by the loop of wire or it could
flow across the very high resistance path through the air between the
spark-gap terminals at B. It would seem that the obvious path for the charge
to follow would be through the low resistance wire loop. Surprisingly, Lodge
was able to produce very large sparks across the spark-gap, B, even though
the dc resistance of the wire across the gap was only a fraction of an
ohm.[4]"

I am trying to "descend you into the same bottomless pit"
S*

[tom]

Post by Szczepan Bialek
He also discovered that HF do not like the long conductors;
"The electrical charge stored in the Leyden jars could flow either through

Leyden jars? You're back that far? That's over 250 years ago! They
had no idea of RF then!

You really need to look at things that aren't so old. The authors you
are reading have been proven WRONG when it comes to antennas and a good
bit of everything else related to electricity.

tom
K0TAR

[Irv Finkleman]

Hey Tom -- have you got the right topic here?

Irv VE6BP

Post by Szczepan Bialek
He also discovered that HF do not like the long conductors;
"The electrical charge stored in the Leyden jars could flow either through

Leyden jars? You're back that far? That's over 250 years ago! They had
no idea of RF then!
You really need to look at things that aren't so old. The authors you are
reading have been proven WRONG when it comes to antennas and a good bit of
everything else related to electricity.
tom
K0TAR

[tom]

Post by Irv Finkleman
Hey Tom -- have you got the right topic here?
Irv VE6BP

Post by Szczepan Bialek
He also discovered that HF do not like the long conductors;
"The electrical charge stored in the Leyden jars could flow either through

Leyden jars? You're back that far? That's over 250 years ago! They had
no idea of RF then!
You really need to look at things that aren't so old. The authors you are
reading have been proven WRONG when it comes to antennas and a good bit of
everything else related to electricity.
tom
K0TAR

Possibly not, my connection to the news server hiccuped badly for about
a half hour and a response didn't get posted. It was to our wonderful
source of knowledge Blaupunkt Szechuan.

I have no idea how it got posted to this thread, but I'd like to.

tom
K0TAR

[tom]

Post by tom

Post by Irv Finkleman
Hey Tom -- have you got the right topic here?
Irv VE6BP

Post by Szczepan Bialek
He also discovered that HF do not like the long conductors;
"The electrical charge stored in the Leyden jars could flow either through

Leyden jars? You're back that far? That's over 250 years ago! They had
no idea of RF then!
You really need to look at things that aren't so old. The authors you
are
reading have been proven WRONG when it comes to antennas and a good bit of
everything else related to electricity.
tom
K0TAR

Possibly not, my connection to the news server hiccuped badly for about
a half hour and a response didn't get posted. It was to our wonderful
source of knowledge Blaupunkt Szechuan.
I have no idea how it got posted to this thread, but I'd like to.
tom
K0TAR

[tom]

Post by tom
Possibly not, my connection to the news server hiccuped badly for about
a half hour and a response didn't get posted. It was to our wonderful
source of knowledge Blaupunkt Szechuan.
I have no idea how it got posted to this thread, but I'd like to.
tom
K0TAR

Wait a minute, that was correct. This was the response to Mister
Blaupunkt. I had it right.

tom
K0TAR

[Sal]

"tom" <***@taring.org> wrote in message news:4f98b2ad$0$74663$***@newsreader.iphouse.net...


< SNIP >

Post by tom
Wait a minute, that was correct. This was the response to Mister
Blaupunkt. I had it right.

No, let's keep Sneezix Dipshit out of this thread. Please.

[Irv Finkleman]

Thanks Sal -- I don't know what was happening -- it had
me wondering. Darned newfangled computers! :-)

I'm spending the morning learning how to operate this little
Yaesu FT-817ND -- it's going to take a bit of patience with
all the menus and settings. I have a TS-820 I fixed up and gave
to a chum who upgraded to a top of the linke TS-1Million or
something and he offered it back to me. It would be a lot
simpler, but one slip of the carrier or mic gain and I'm sure
I'd totally reveal my thus far cleverly concealed ham radio
operation!

Thanks again for getting back to Tom on the Leyden jar matter!
It really had me confused.

Irv VE6BP

Post by Sal
< SNIP >

Post by tom
Wait a minute, that was correct. This was the response to Mister
Blaupunkt. I had it right.

No, let's keep Sneezix Dipshit out of this thread. Please.

[tom]

Post by Sal
No, let's keep Sneezix Dipshit out of this thread. Please.

Unfortunately he is in this thread. Fortunately not much.

I like your interpretation of his name much better than mine.

tom
K0TAR

[Roger]

Post by Irv Finkleman
Thusly, my goal is to provide myself with a first rate
RF ground system, entirely contained within my suite,
in order that I do not wake up at night with the fire
alarms set off and great numbers of disturbed
residents gathered around pointing at me and saying
'Ham! Ham! For Shame! For Shame!' and the Residents
Council having special meetings to decide how to deal
with me. They already think I'm crazy -- and I may be
somewhat, but I don't want to make matters worse!
So, having herein explained my rational, lets see what
help I can get in the way of producing the ideal indoor
low-cost non-radiating counterpoise radial system.
Actually, I have lots of wire for the radials, the
tuner contains a loading coil to assist in tuning
the counterpoise, and my big concern is how do
I determine when the counterpoise is operating
effectively. The metering system in the tuner should
reach a peak and subside on either side of the
correct counterpoise tuning point, and what I
really need to know is how to determine when the
stray RF is minimized if not eliminated.

Irv,

Nice to hear that you got something working and are back on the air. However I want to point out some incorrect assumptions you made earlier about RFI and stray RF from counterpoises.

The subject of radiating counterpoises in an apartment was discussed in this Usenet group a few years ago. Here is a link that provides some more info for you.

How much does a counterpoise radiate? - http://www.radiobanter.com/showthread.php?t=117807

The counterpoise you have inside your apartment will definitely radiate into the building as will the length of antenna running from the tuner to the hole in the window. In another post you said you were running QRP at 5 watts. You may not have any RFI problems with other electronics in your building at these low levels. If you crank up the power to 100 watts I don't think you will be so lucky...

[Wayne]

Post by Irv Finkleman
Thusly, my goal is to provide myself with a first rate
RF ground system, entirely contained within my suite,
in order that I do not wake up at night with the fire
alarms set off and great numbers of disturbed
residents gathered around pointing at me and saying
'Ham! Ham! For Shame! For Shame!' and the Residents
Council having special meetings to decide how to deal
with me. They already think I'm crazy -- and I may be
somewhat, but I don't want to make matters worse!
So, having herein explained my rational, lets see what
help I can get in the way of producing the ideal indoor
low-cost non-radiating counterpoise radial system.
Actually, I have lots of wire for the radials, the
tuner contains a loading coil to assist in tuning
the counterpoise, and my big concern is how do
I determine when the counterpoise is operating
effectively. The metering system in the tuner should
reach a peak and subside on either side of the
correct counterpoise tuning point, and what I
really need to know is how to determine when the
stray RF is minimized if not eliminated.

# Irv,

# Nice to hear that you got something working and are back on the air.
However I want to point out some incorrect assumptions you made earlier
about RFI and stray RF from counterpoises.

# The subject of radiating counterpoises in an apartment was discussed in
this Usenet group a few years ago. Here is a link that provides some more
info for you.

# How much does a counterpoise radiate? -
http://www.radiobanter.com/showthread.php?t=117807

# The counterpoise you have inside your apartment will definitely radiate
into the building as will the length of antenna running from the tuner to
the hole in the window. In another post you said you were running QRP at 5
watts. You may not have any # RFI problems with other electronics in your
building at these low levels. If you crank up the power to 100 watts I
don't think you will be so lucky...

-
True. A few years back with 100 watts and an attic loop, I fried the solid
state heat/AC thermostat. I put a ferrite choke on the leads of the new
one.

Wayne
W5GIE

[Irv Finkleman]

Thanks Roger -- I already knew that but didn't at all consider it
during my recent explorations into the counterpoise system. How
I managed to ignore it defys explanation -- I keep asking myself
how that occurred. I think it may have been a cross between
psychological suggestion and some form of denial in wanting
a good and clean signal.

In particular I really enjoyed the tipoff to RadioBanter.com
which I intend to explore more, and the discussions were
informative. In particular, where there are links to other
threads I found some of Reg Edwards material which
has always been worthy of reading.

I went to bed satisfied that I could now get on the
air and not set off any alarms etc, and although I don't
recall them when I woke up, I'm sure I must have
dreamed about good times on the air again! I've
been in and out of the hospital for a couple years
and have not been on the air since about mid
2009. I'm better now and looking forward to
lots of radio activity!

As I mentioned in earlier posts, I have never been
power hungry and have generally operated in the
under 25 watt range -- now I'm going to be what
I call 'ham flyfishing' i.e. QRP.

Now I can do some further experimentation such
as using individual counterpoise wires for each band,
and possibly even a variable inductor to fine tune the
counterpoise, and assorted things like that. I have
never been as interested in operating as in the
technical aspects -- especially the eternal search
for the utopian small antenna/DX magnet. My
DX interest extends only in so far as it is the
on the air tests that tell you how well your
antenna system is functioning given a
non-adjustable set of propagation conditions.

Now I have only to look forward to a good
sunspot cycle and perhaps just a little more
global warming to help me through those
cold Alberta winters!

What's your call? Where are you located?
I saw a .ca somewhere but that doesn't tell me
much.

Thanks again,

Irv VE6BP

Gonna ham away my 'golden years'!

Post by Irv Finkleman
Thusly, my goal is to provide myself with a first rate
RF ground system, entirely contained within my suite,
in order that I do not wake up at night with the fire
alarms set off and great numbers of disturbed
residents gathered around pointing at me and saying
'Ham! Ham! For Shame! For Shame!' and the Residents
Council having special meetings to decide how to deal
with me. They already think I'm crazy -- and I may be
somewhat, but I don't want to make matters worse!
So, having herein explained my rational, lets see what
help I can get in the way of producing the ideal indoor
low-cost non-radiating counterpoise radial system.
Actually, I have lots of wire for the radials, the
tuner contains a loading coil to assist in tuning
the counterpoise, and my big concern is how do
I determine when the counterpoise is operating
effectively. The metering system in the tuner should
reach a peak and subside on either side of the
correct counterpoise tuning point, and what I
really need to know is how to determine when the
stray RF is minimized if not eliminated.

Irv,

Nice to hear that you got something working and are back on the air.
However I want to point out some incorrect assumptions you made earlier
about RFI and stray RF from counterpoises.

The subject of radiating counterpoises in an apartment was discussed in this
Usenet group a few years ago. Here is a link that provides some more info
for you.

How much does a counterpoise radiate? -
http://www.radiobanter.com/showthread.php?t=117807

The counterpoise you have inside your apartment will definitely radiate into
the building as will the length of antenna running from the tuner to the
hole in the window. In another post you said you were running QRP at 5
watts. You may not have any RFI problems with other electronics in your
building at these low levels. If you crank up the power to 100 watts I
don't think you will be so lucky...

[Roger]

Post by Irv Finkleman
In particular I really enjoyed the tipoff to RadioBanter.com
which I intend to explore more, and the discussions were
informative. In particular, where there are links to other
threads I found some of Reg Edwards material which
has always been worthy of reading.

Irv,

If you found the radio banter discussion interesting you will really enjoy the forum on restrictive antennas at eham. Pages and pages of stuff written by hams living in condos, HOA and apartments. Here is the link....

http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/board,2.0.html

Now that you are feeling better you can start having some fun back on the bands. You might find some of the digital modes like PSK31, WSPR etc. fun and they don't generate "recognizable RFI" like CW and SSB.

Roger

[Dave Platt]

Post by Irv Finkleman
I am not as concerned about a case of 'rf lip' as I am
about stray RF causing possible problems with the
neighbours on all sides of me, with all my electronic
toys such as computers, DVD players, the local
fire-alarm system and other such things. The last
thing I want to do is draw attention to the fact that I
am running a ham radio station from my suite until
I know I am not causing any problems.
Thusly, my goal is to provide myself with a first rate
RF ground system, entirely contained within my suite,
in order that I do not wake up at night with the fire
alarms set off and great numbers of disturbed
residents gathered around pointing at me and saying
'Ham! Ham! For Shame! For Shame!' and the Residents
Council having special meetings to decide how to deal
with me. They already think I'm crazy -- and I may be
somewhat, but I don't want to make matters worse!
So, having herein explained my rational, lets see what
help I can get in the way of producing the ideal indoor
low-cost non-radiating counterpoise radial system.

Irv,

Your goals are certainly valid.

As far as preventing RF from going where you don't want it to... the
main issue MJF is talking about here is "conducted" RF. The RF energy
on the "ground" side of your antenna connector is going to flow
outwards through every conductive path available to it, including the
"counterpoise" side of your antenna arrangement, and anything
connected directly or indirectly to your rig's chassis (e.g. to the
power supply and then onto the third "ground" wire in the household
mains). The amount of current flowing through each of these paths
will depend on the RF impedance of the path, with more current flowing
through paths of lower impedance.

So, what you want is (probably) to have one or more counterpoise wires
whose RF impedance is as low as practical, at the frequency in
question. These could be quarter-wave wires, or they could be shorter
or longer wires with an "active ground" (which is essentially a simple
"antenna tuner" on the ground side, with an adjustable reactance to
cancel out some of the reactance of a non-quarterwave wire).

You can also help keep RF "where it belongs" by adding common-mode
chokes to your rig power cables, thus increasing the RF impedance of
this path and helping reduce the amount of current which is conducted
back into the building ground.

Another approach which may help, is to consider using an end-fed
half-wave antenna, with a specifically-wound matching coil system.
These are (in principle at least) largely ground-independent... the
low-impedance side of the matching coil provides good RF paths for
both the "hot" and "ground" sides of the antenna connection, and when
properly adjusted they don't dump much RF into the rig ground or
counterpoise.

These techniques may not help much, if at all, with *radiated* RF
getting into places you don't want it. Even if you have an antenna
which is fully balanced, and completely isolated from the building
ground (e.g. battery powered), the "near field" RF from the antenna
can be coupled into the building wiring, and start causing
interference and "undesired operation". Unfortunately, a lot of
consumer and industrial electronic equipment these days is very
vulnerable to this... poor shielding/filtering. Speaker cables,
telephone and alarm wiring, etc. can all act as antennas.

Not much you can do about this except try to route your antenna and
counterpoise wires as far away from other wiring as possible, keep
your transmission power down, and try to transmit during times when
people are asleep.

[Irv Finkleman]

Thanks for your reply Dave,

I'm learning a lot in a hurry, finding out that grounds can be just
as complex as antennas, and all about the interelationship between
the two.

I do have chokes on the power cord of my 12v supply and
also on the supply cord between the PS and the rig.

Your half wave suggestion is not immediately forthcoming
due to the physical limitations I face here however it is
on my list of possible future condierations.

As per a previous post I have recently come into a
treasure trove of inductors and capacitors -- variables
of every type and sixe. With all this at my disposalI
plan to fiddle about with tunable counterpoises,
artificial grounds, and combinations thereof.

At least I'm on the air again, but because I gave
all my gear away I've had to jump from old tube rigs
into a QRP world with a teensy Yaesu Ft-817 that it
appears will take some time to learn to operate with
all its menus, settings, and such. I have to get new
glasses and perhaps a magnifier too.

The saving grace here is QRP with which I hope
to get into as little trouble as possible.

I'm a pretty good tech, and have fixed up and modified
lots of stuff but now I'm going to have to do a lot of
learning in the wild world of wire antennas and grounds.

Thanks for your good suggestions, and for taking the
time to reply.

73

Irv VE6BP

Post by Dave Platt

Post by Irv Finkleman
I am not as concerned about a case of 'rf lip' as I am
about stray RF causing possible problems with the
neighbours on all sides of me, with all my electronic
toys such as computers, DVD players, the local
fire-alarm system and other such things. The last
thing I want to do is draw attention to the fact that I
am running a ham radio station from my suite until
I know I am not causing any problems.
Thusly, my goal is to provide myself with a first rate
RF ground system, entirely contained within my suite,
in order that I do not wake up at night with the fire
alarms set off and great numbers of disturbed
residents gathered around pointing at me and saying
'Ham! Ham! For Shame! For Shame!' and the Residents
Council having special meetings to decide how to deal
with me. They already think I'm crazy -- and I may be
somewhat, but I don't want to make matters worse!
So, having herein explained my rational, lets see what
help I can get in the way of producing the ideal indoor
low-cost non-radiating counterpoise radial system.

Irv,
Your goals are certainly valid.
As far as preventing RF from going where you don't want it to... the
main issue MJF is talking about here is "conducted" RF. The RF energy
on the "ground" side of your antenna connector is going to flow
outwards through every conductive path available to it, including the
"counterpoise" side of your antenna arrangement, and anything
connected directly or indirectly to your rig's chassis (e.g. to the
power supply and then onto the third "ground" wire in the household
mains). The amount of current flowing through each of these paths
will depend on the RF impedance of the path, with more current flowing
through paths of lower impedance.
So, what you want is (probably) to have one or more counterpoise wires
whose RF impedance is as low as practical, at the frequency in
question. These could be quarter-wave wires, or they could be shorter
or longer wires with an "active ground" (which is essentially a simple
"antenna tuner" on the ground side, with an adjustable reactance to
cancel out some of the reactance of a non-quarterwave wire).
You can also help keep RF "where it belongs" by adding common-mode
chokes to your rig power cables, thus increasing the RF impedance of
this path and helping reduce the amount of current which is conducted
back into the building ground.
Another approach which may help, is to consider using an end-fed
half-wave antenna, with a specifically-wound matching coil system.
These are (in principle at least) largely ground-independent... the
low-impedance side of the matching coil provides good RF paths for
both the "hot" and "ground" sides of the antenna connection, and when
properly adjusted they don't dump much RF into the rig ground or
counterpoise.
These techniques may not help much, if at all, with *radiated* RF
getting into places you don't want it. Even if you have an antenna
which is fully balanced, and completely isolated from the building
ground (e.g. battery powered), the "near field" RF from the antenna
can be coupled into the building wiring, and start causing
interference and "undesired operation". Unfortunately, a lot of
consumer and industrial electronic equipment these days is very
vulnerable to this... poor shielding/filtering. Speaker cables,
telephone and alarm wiring, etc. can all act as antennas.
Not much you can do about this except try to route your antenna and
counterpoise wires as far away from other wiring as possible, keep
your transmission power down, and try to transmit during times when
people are asleep.
--
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

[Jeff Liebermann]

Post by Irv Finkleman
At least I'm on the air again, but because I gave
all my gear away I've had to jump from old tube rigs
into a QRP world with a teensy Yaesu Ft-817 that it
appears will take some time to learn to operate with
all its menus, settings, and such. I have to get new
glasses and perhaps a magnifier too.

Light reading on the FT-817:
<http://www.ka7oei.com/ft817pg.shtml>

Post by Irv Finkleman
The saving grace here is QRP with which I hope
to get into as little trouble as possible.

As soon as the neighbors find out that you're a ham radio operator,
several things will happen.
1. You will immediatly be blamed for all manner of electronic
failures. Kitchen appliances, computer crashes, and prematurely dead
batteries will all become your fault.
2. Neighbors will assume that you fix things for free. Training the
neighbors to pay for your time will be a challenge.
3. The phone will ring at 2AM asking if you're on the air and causing
reception problems with OTA TV, cable TV, satellite TV, etc.

Post by Irv Finkleman
I'm a pretty good tech, and have fixed up and modified
lots of stuff but now I'm going to have to do a lot of
learning in the wild world of wire antennas and grounds.

My theory is that if it doesn't work on paper, it's not going to work
when you build it. There are plenty of "standard" antennas that
usually work the first time (if you follow instructions). However,
you seem to be interested in designing your own. Therefore, I suggest
you download the demo version of EZNEC, or the free 4NEC2, and proceed
to model your prospective antenna system. When the computah says that
you're close, then it's time to build it. An MFJ269 or similar
antenna analyzer is handy for verifying your calculations.

Hint: One of my ham friends moved into a CC&R (covenants, conditions
and restrictions) infested condo farm. No antennas of any kind. The
condo council had at least one member that was certain that property
values would decline if a ham was allowed to operate from the condo
farm. So, I leaned a 20ft aluminum extension ladder against the house
and ran a wire to the radio. It worke quite well with a tuner. The
ladder was left leaning against the condo for a bit less than a year
before the condo council discovered the ruse. There was a short
debate. The council decided that since it had been in operation for a
year without any complaints or detrimental effects, it could stay.

[Sal]

"Jeff Liebermann" <***@cruzio.com> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...


< snip >

Post by Jeff Liebermann
I leaned a 20ft aluminum extension ladder against the house
and ran a wire to the radio. It worke quite well with a tuner. The
ladder was left leaning against the condo for a bit less than a year
before the condo council discovered the ruse. There was a short
debate. The council decided that since it had been in operation for a
year without any complaints or detrimental effects, it could stay.
--
Jeff Liebermann

That is _so_ funny, I just got done mentioning my ladder experience!

"Sal"
<big grin>

[Irv Finkleman]

(assorted snips for brevity)

Post by Jeff Liebermann
<http://www.ka7oei.com/ft817pg.shtml>

Already been there and a few other places too, but
thanks just the same. There are always new links popping
up and I try to keep up with them too!

Post by Jeff Liebermann
As soon as the neighbors find out that you're a ham radio operator,
several things will happen.
1. You will immediatly be blamed for all manner of electronic
failures. Kitchen appliances, computer crashes, and prematurely dead
batteries will all become your fault.
2. Neighbors will assume that you fix things for free. Training the
neighbors to pay for your time will be a challenge.
3. The phone will ring at 2AM asking if you're on the air and causing
reception problems with OTA TV, cable TV, satellite TV, etc.

After mucho years on the air in mucho locations I can say I've been
there, done that! This is however, my first real experience using a
very limited antenna and QRP.

Post by Jeff Liebermann
My theory is that if it doesn't work on paper, it's not going to work
when you build it. There are plenty of "standard" antennas that
usually work the first time (if you follow instructions). However,
you seem to be interested in designing your own. Therefore, I suggest
you download the demo version of EZNEC, or the free 4NEC2, and proceed
to model your prospective antenna system. When the computah says that
you're close, then it's time to build it. An MFJ269 or similar
antenna analyzer is handy for verifying your calculations.

I have an MFJ-259B -- couldn't live without it, and with all the
stuff I gave away this was the one thing that I just couldn't part with.

Post by Jeff Liebermann
Hint: One of my ham friends moved into a CC&R (covenants, conditions
and restrictions) infested condo farm. No antennas of any kind. The
condo council had at least one member that was certain that property
values would decline if a ham was allowed to operate from the condo
farm. So, I leaned a 20ft aluminum extension ladder against the house
and ran a wire to the radio. It worke quite well with a tuner. The
ladder was left leaning against the condo for a bit less than a year
before the condo council discovered the ruse. There was a short
debate. The council decided that since it had been in operation for a
year without any complaints or detrimental effects, it could stay.

Good move! I've always maintained that if you give me any old
piece of metal almost anywhere, I'd find a way to load it and get
on the air! And I've done it time and time again. I did 26 years
in the navy and moved around a lot -- quick and simple antennas
were a must! I also helped a lot of chums who moved into
condos or rest homes get on the air using similar methods.

This case now though, is the first time I ever went into a place
that seemed impervious to signals. I've often operated from
indoors with no problem, and here, the first time I flashed up the
receiver, thought it had gone dead -- that's how bad it was. The
first thing I did was checked the protective diodes on the
antenna connector and as soon as I found them OK, opened
the window and strung a short wire outside -- then everything
was 5/9 plus!

As per another sailor many years ago said, 'I have not
yet begun to fight!'

Irv VE6BP

[Jeff Liebermann]

Post by Irv Finkleman
I have an MFJ-259B -- couldn't live without it, and with all the
stuff I gave away this was the one thing that I just couldn't part with.

For when you transmit into it by accident...
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/2011-12-03-Storm/>
The MJF-259B is similar to the MFJ-269B, except that it lacks the
440MHz section. It's a very handy instrument, but is rather fragile
in that the detector diodes are connected directly to the RF
connector. One blast of too much RF, too much static electricity, or
even too much DC, and the diodes go poof.

Post by Irv Finkleman
Good move! I've always maintained that if you give me any old
piece of metal almost anywhere, I'd find a way to load it and get
on the air!

There's also the rain gutters.

Post by Irv Finkleman
This case now though, is the first time I ever went into a place
that seemed impervious to signals. I've often operated from
indoors with no problem, and here, the first time I flashed up the
receiver, thought it had gone dead -- that's how bad it was. The
first thing I did was checked the protective diodes on the
antenna connector and as soon as I found them OK, opened
the window and strung a short wire outside -- then everything
was 5/9 plus!

Welcome to the joys of modern energy efficient construction. The
walls are full of aluminum foil backed insulation for both thermal and
acoustic insulation. The windows are coated with Low-E Titanium
Nitride IR reflective coatings (40 ohms per square), which also blocks
RF. The roofing material is carbon doped (instead of asbestos) which
absorbs RF. The foundation is concrete, which also absorbs RF.
Meanwhile, the proliferation of microprocessors, switching power
supplies, and BPL like devices, offers multiple sources of QRN. You
had it easy at previous locations.

Post by Irv Finkleman
As per another sailor many years ago said, 'I have not
yet begun to fight!'

Fighting is easy. It's negotiation that drives me nuts.

[Irv Finkleman]

Post by Jeff Liebermann
Welcome to the joys of modern energy efficient construction. The
walls are full of aluminum foil backed insulation for both thermal and
acoustic insulation. The windows are coated with Low-E Titanium
Nitride IR reflective coatings (40 ohms per square), which also blocks
RF. The roofing material is carbon doped (instead of asbestos) which
absorbs RF. The foundation is concrete, which also absorbs RF.
Meanwhile, the proliferation of microprocessors, switching power
supplies, and BPL like devices, offers multiple sources of QRN. You
had it easy at previous locations.

I kind of fell behind in my knowledge of modern constuction.
I lived in my house for 29-3/4 years and even though I did
a lot of renos, the infrastruction remained basically the same.
It is good though that they are getting smart on energy
efficient construction and other things -- hopefully we will
leave our kids and grandkids with a world pointed in the
right direction.

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Irv Finkleman
As per another sailor many years ago said, 'I have not
yet begun to fight!'

Fighting is easy. It's negotiation that drives me nuts.

I'm on the air but not sure just how well I am getting
out, I don't want to measure it, I don't even care to
know since it is a whole different matter on QRP.
The proof will be in the pudding -- I may have to
wait for good band conditions, but the only
valid means of measurement will be the number
of QSO's and bands I can work.

From those lovely boxes of variable caps and
assorted inductors (some roller-inductors) and
a cheap 2nd hand 50ua meter I am going to build
up an artificial ground which is about as simple
a circuit as one can get -- the L&C in series and
make a sniffer out of the meter and a diode!. I
should have it all going in the next day or two --
as soon as I can get a round tooit. Yes. I admit --
I'm a master of procrastination

Well, on with the further adventures of
getting on the air to the point of satisfaction.
Is that a lot, I ask?

Thanks on the tips re the MFJ diodes. I'm aware
of them and can test and change them if need be.
So far, so good! I guess it wouldn't hurt to have
some on hand -- it's pretty inevitable that with
the experimentation etc, that I'll be doing some
or all will get blown before you can say poof!

Do you think that if I were to ask the management
here If I could have an aluminum ladder outside my
second floor window -- just to easy my mind about
the dangers of fire, they might agree?

Irv VE6BP

Post by Jeff Liebermann
--
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Jeff Liebermann]

Post by Irv Finkleman
It is good though that they are getting smart on energy
efficient construction and other things -- hopefully we will
leave our kids and grandkids with a world pointed in the
right direction.

Yep. It's happening, but very slowly and painfully. Ecology is
expensive in the short term, but worth the cost and effort.
Unfortunately, I've seen some abuse of power precipitated in the name
of the environment. Like all good things, environmental correctness
does attract a few flies.

Post by Irv Finkleman
I'm on the air but not sure just how well I am getting
out, I don't want to measure it, I don't even care to
know since it is a whole different matter on QRP.

Oh rubbish. There are plenty of ways to test your setup that doesn't
involve calling CQ and getting a subjective signal report:
1. You can login to one of the remote radios or receivers on the
internet, tune to an empty frequency, and listen to yourself.
<http://beta.remotehams.com>
<http://www.dxzone.com/catalog/Internet_and_Radio/Online_Receivers/>
2. You can join one of the internet QRP clubs.
3. Weak Signal Propagation Reporter Network
<http://wsprnet.org>
4. Reverse Beacon Network:
<http://www.reversebeacon.net>
5. You can listen for beacons to check your receiver and antenna:
<http://www.ac6v.com/beacons.htm>
Our local radio club also has a remote HF station controllable over
the internet (using HRD) but it's only for club members.

Post by Irv Finkleman
From those lovely boxes of variable caps and
assorted inductors (some roller-inductors) and
a cheap 2nd hand 50ua meter I am going to build
up an artificial ground which is about as simple
a circuit as one can get -- the L&C in series and
make a sniffer out of the meter and a diode!.

All an artificial ground does is tune out the ground lead inductance
so that it's series resonant at the operating frequency. In effect,
you're building a counterpoise. You could user your MFJ-259B or a
grid dip meter to resonate the ground lead, and forget about the meter
and detector. However, if you must use a meter, I suggest a
thermocouple RF ammeter. Getting it to heat up the series resistor at
5 watts might be a challenge, but it can be done. Otherwise, it's a
current transfomer, ferrite core, diode detector, and 50ua meter.
<http://www.w1tag.com/RFA.htm>

Post by Irv Finkleman
I'm a master of procrastination

I have a PHD in procrastination. Never do today what you get someone
else to do for you tomorrow.

Post by Irv Finkleman
Is that a lot, I ask?

Yes, if you try to do it all at once.
No, if you take your time, grind the numbers, do a little planning,
and invite all your friends to help.

Post by Irv Finkleman
Thanks on the tips re the MFJ diodes. I'm aware
of them and can test and change them if need be.

I could only test the diodes after they were removed. The 50 ohm
resistors in the circuit prevented easy checking with an ohms guesser.

Post by Irv Finkleman
So far, so good! I guess it wouldn't hurt to have
some on hand -- it's pretty inevitable that with
the experimentation etc, that I'll be doing some
or all will get blown before you can say poof!

Yep. My experience is that certain users tend to blow up diodes no
matter what they do, while others don't have any problems. I'm sure
it's the user, not the analyzer. Possibly static build-up or
ungrounded antennas. Dunno.

I've been fairly lucky replacing all 4 diodes without needed to
calibrate the device. However, if you find the readings off after
replacement, see:
<http://www.w8ji.com/mfj-259b_calibration.htm>
The procedure took me 2 full days on an MFJ-269B. It went much
quicker after I read and followed the instructions.

Post by Irv Finkleman
Do you think that if I were to ask the management
here If I could have an aluminum ladder outside my
second floor window -- just to easy my mind about
the dangers of fire, they might agree?

No. Someone will probably try to steal the ladder. 20ft ladders are
not cheap. I ran two u-bolts through the ladder base, and permanently
attached the u-bolts to two foundation blocks with half a bag of
concrete mix in the hole. Various attempts were made to steal it, but
nobody got very far with 30 kg of buried excess weight attached. The
connecting antenna wire also acts as a capacitive alarm when the HF
radio is not being used. All this was only possible because each
condo had its own private back yard.

Another problem with a 2nd floor ladder is that you will be feeding
the ladder from the top, rather than from the bottom. That will
possibly work, but probably not as good as feeding the ladder from the
bottom.

[Irv Finkleman]

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Irv Finkleman
It is good though that they are getting smart on energy
efficient construction and other things -- hopefully we will
leave our kids and grandkids with a world pointed in the
right direction.

(snipped now and again here and there for brevity)

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Irv Finkleman
I'm on the air but not sure just how well I am getting
out, I don't want to measure it, I don't even care to
know since it is a whole different matter on QRP.

Oh rubbish. There are plenty of ways to test your setup that doesn't
1. You can login to one of the remote radios or receivers on the
internet, tune to an empty frequency, and listen to yourself.
<http://beta.remotehams.com>
<http://www.dxzone.com/catalog/Internet_and_Radio/Online_Receivers/>
2. You can join one of the internet QRP clubs.
3. Weak Signal Propagation Reporter Network
<http://wsprnet.org>
<http://www.reversebeacon.net>
<http://www.ac6v.com/beacons.htm>
Our local radio club also has a remote HF station controllable over
the internet (using HRD) but it's only for club members.

I won't care about subjective reports -- I'll be happy if
my few paltry watts that do escape the antenna get me
any kind of response. I am aware of the remote
receivers but I don't want to get so busy using other
things that I won't have time on the air making
plain good old fashioned QSOs. I will have a peek
at the internet QRP clubs as long as I don't lose
on air time going to meetings -- even on-air!

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Irv Finkleman
From those lovely boxes of variable caps and
assorted inductors (some roller-inductors) and
a cheap 2nd hand 50ua meter I am going to build
up an artificial ground which is about as simple
a circuit as one can get -- the L&C in series and
make a sniffer out of the meter and a diode!.

All an artificial ground does is tune out the ground lead inductance
so that it's series resonant at the operating frequency. In effect,
you're building a counterpoise. You could user your MFJ-259B or a
grid dip meter to resonate the ground lead, and forget about the meter
and detector.

I considered that. I already have a group of radials
of various lengths on the floor -- I tied them together
with plastic ties for neatness, but with a ground tuner
I only need one which I plan to lay out along the edge
of the carpet -- that should make a neater job and if
I can tuck most of it under the baseboards it will not
frighten the houskeeper.

However, if you must use a meter, I suggest a

Post by Jeff Liebermann
thermocouple RF ammeter. Getting it to heat up the series resistor at
5 watts might be a challenge, but it can be done. Otherwise, it's a
current transfomer, ferrite core, diode detector, and 50ua meter.
<http://www.w1tag.com/RFA.htm>

A simple diode detector may be enough, but if necessary
I'll have to line up ferrite core and get complicated.

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Irv Finkleman
I'm a master of procrastination

I have a PHD in procrastination. Never do today what you get someone
else to do for you tomorrow.

I was always good at procrastination however I did not consider
the part of having someone else do the work -- that's probably
why you have the PhD and I don't!!

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Irv Finkleman
Is that a lot, I ask?

Yes, if you try to do it all at once.
No, if you take your time, grind the numbers, do a little planning,
and invite all your friends to help.

That's the nice thing about being a retired senior -- I can take
all the time I want, and as you've seen in this thread, I'm
doing a lot of planning, and if necessary there I've got
lots of ham chums who will be anxious to lend a hand just
to get in here and see what I'm up to.

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Irv Finkleman
Thanks on the tips re the MFJ diodes. I'm aware
of them and can test and change them if need be.

I have the W8JI procedure tucked away in a safe
place on my computer where I may never find it again,
Thank heaven for good search tools.

Post by Jeff Liebermann
I could only test the diodes after they were removed. The 50 ohm
resistors in the circuit prevented easy checking with an ohms guesser.

I never considered that -- oh well, it should only take a jiffy
to pop the diodes out although there is always Murphy to
take into account.

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Irv Finkleman
So far, so good! I guess it wouldn't hurt to have
some on hand -- it's pretty inevitable that with
the experimentation etc, that I'll be doing some
or all will get blown before you can say poof!

Yep. My experience is that certain users tend to blow up diodes no
matter what they do, while others don't have any problems. I'm sure
it's the user, not the analyzer. Possibly static build-up or
ungrounded antennas. Dunno.
I've been fairly lucky replacing all 4 diodes without needed to
calibrate the device. However, if you find the readings off after
<http://www.w8ji.com/mfj-259b_calibration.htm>
The procedure took me 2 full days on an MFJ-269B. It went much
quicker after I read and followed the instructions.

Now there's a very unhamlike suggestion -- wouldn't stopping
to read and follow the instructions severely slow down the
calibration procedure?

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Irv Finkleman
Do you think that if I were to ask the management
here If I could have an aluminum ladder outside my
second floor window -- just to easy my mind about
the dangers of fire, they might agree?

No. Someone will probably try to steal the ladder. 20ft ladders are
not cheap. I ran two u-bolts through the ladder base, and permanently
attached the u-bolts to two foundation blocks with half a bag of
concrete mix in the hole. Various attempts were made to steal it, but
nobody got very far with 30 kg of buried excess weight attached. The
connecting antenna wire also acts as a capacitive alarm when the HF
radio is not being used. All this was only possible because each
condo had its own private back yard.

I've considered all the security precautions you took with the ladder.
At the moment I'm considering how to rotate it, and
wondering if I couldn't use a wooden ladder with lots
of wire stapled to it in a multiband Hentenna configuration!
I guess I may have to rethink it and take it one step at
a time! Now, I have to consider which rotor. Do you by
chance know offhand the wind load of a 20 ft Al ladder?
How about a folding ladder for the sake of extra length?

Post by Jeff Liebermann
Another problem with a 2nd floor ladder is that you will be feeding
the ladder from the top, rather than from the bottom. That will
possibly work, but probably not as good as feeding the ladder from the
bottom.

I'll use double sideband so that it won't matter which end of
the ladder I feed it from!
Cheers, this is fun!

Irv VE6BP

[Jeff Liebermann]

Post by Irv Finkleman
I never considered that -- oh well, it should only take a jiffy
to pop the diodes out although there is always Murphy to
take into account.

Umm... the diodes don't quite pop out in a jiffy. You must first tear
apart the instrument just to get to the diodes. They're tiny little
devils, best handled with stainless SMD tweezers.
<Loading Image...>
They're the 4 black things labeled "COB". If you order some from
Digikey or Mouser, be sure to get plenty of spares. I dropped two on
my workbench, where they promptly disappeared.

[Irv Finkleman]

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Irv Finkleman
I never considered that -- oh well, it should only take a jiffy
to pop the diodes out although there is always Murphy to
take into account.

Umm... the diodes don't quite pop out in a jiffy. You must first tear
apart the instrument just to get to the diodes. They're tiny little
devils, best handled with stainless SMD tweezers.
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/mfj-269b-diodes.jpg>
They're the 4 black things labeled "COB". If you order some from
Digikey or Mouser, be sure to get plenty of spares. I dropped two on
my workbench, where they promptly disappeared.

After I retired from the Navy I worked for Sony as a tech for 14
years and became pretty handy with SMD. When I retired from Sony
I kept my tools which included a headband magnifier and a few
different tweezers only one of which I consistently used. I do
recall losing one or two of the smaller SMD components but
I eventually learned to take precautions to avoid doing so..

With respect to taking things apart and then getting them
back together again I have to brag about my abilities. When
I had my first interview with Sony the asked me how much
of the work I considered electronic and how much was
mechanical. I estimated 90 percent mechanical (getting
the old part out and putting the new part in and then
the unit back together). I know now that it is more like
99.9%.

Oh well, I guess I'll just have to try and not blow
the diodes even though we both believe it will be
inevitable!

Irv VE6BP

[Jeff Liebermann]

Post by Irv Finkleman
After I retired from the Navy I worked for Sony as a tech for 14
years and became pretty handy with SMD.

I worked for Sony/Superscope in Sunland-Tujunga California for a short
while in the mid 1960's. Too far to drive from where I was living and
going to skool.

Post by Irv Finkleman
When I retired from Sony
I kept my tools which included a headband magnifier and a few
different tweezers only one of which I consistently used.

Does your former boss know about this? Is there a reward for turning
you in? If you're going to pilfer the tools, at least take something
expensive.

I left one company with my junk parts box, my collection of component
samples, a DVM, and my favorite screwdriver. I probably could have
taken a load of test equipment, as nobody seemed to care. I figured
the dumpster would be full of junk after the layoff/purge. I was
right and collected quite a pile of goodies from the dumpster. I also
suspected that my project notes would be thrown away, so I grabbed
those. Many years later, the company raised one project from the dead
and called asking if I had any history on the project. Like a fool, I
just gave it to them, instead of demanding payment.

Like all products, my ancient products eventually hit the surplus
market. Like all good surplus equipment, there were no manuals to be
found. So, like a complete fool, I scanned the manuals and posted
them to my web pile. I now waste far too much time answering
questions and helping with repairs. Lesson learned: Products tend to
rise from the dead and will haunt you like zombies.

Post by Irv Finkleman
I do
recall losing one or two of the smaller SMD components but
I eventually learned to take precautions to avoid doing so..

My standard precaution is to buy extra parts. The parts are cheap. My
time is not. I use metal egg trays for parts storage. However, I
also tend to tip those over or bury them in junk. My latest trick is
using semi-sticky window shelf paper to hold parts. That works great
after I remove the flies, bugs, and glue eating banana slugs.

Post by Irv Finkleman
With respect to taking things apart and then getting them
back together again I have to brag about my abilities. When
I had my first interview with Sony the asked me how much
of the work I considered electronic and how much was
mechanical. I estimated 90 percent mechanical (getting
the old part out and putting the new part in and then
the unit back together). I know now that it is more like
99.9%.

Agreed. When I started in engineering, it was 99.9% engineering and
0.01% politics. 15 years or so later, it was 99.9% politics and 0.01%
engineering. Productivity was about the same in both cases. Now that
I'm officially in the repair biz, my guess is about 33% repair, 33%
paper shuffling, and 33% customer ego support.

One nice thing about ham radio is that if I announce that I'm working
on a project, and I procrastinate enough, then one of the local hams
will eventually do it for me. See Tom Sawyer white washing a fence
for details on how it works.

Post by Irv Finkleman
Oh well, I guess I'll just have to try and not blow
the diodes even though we both believe it will be
inevitable!

Not really. As I previously ranted, only certain people seem to blow
up the diodes. If you haven't blown any diodes by now, you're
probably safe. Just don't loan it to any of your friends, especially
on Field Day[1]. What seems to kill the analyzers is the act of
plugging in and unplugging a PL-259 to the unit. The PL-259 is unique
in that the center pin makes contact before the ground. This is
what's commonly known as a lousy idea. If you've built up a static
charge with your clothes and shoes, and are holding the shield, you'll
discharge yourself through the center pin and directly into the
diodes. That's my guess(tm) as to what's happening. I now make it a
habit of touching the center pin to case ground, before plugging in.
No clue if it helps, but it seems like a good idea. The N connector
on the MFJ-269B should not have this problem, but they seem to blow up
anyway, probably due to a different failure mechanism.

Post by Irv Finkleman
Irv VE6BP

[1] Hint: Measure the DC voltage on the traditional Field Day
balloon supported long wire antenna, especially if there's some wind.
If the DVM doesn't explode, you're still not safe.

[Irv Finkleman]

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Irv Finkleman
When I retired from Sony
I kept my tools which included a headband magnifier and a few
different tweezers only one of which I consistently used.

Does your former boss know about this? Is there a reward for turning
you in? If you're going to pilfer the tools, at least take something
expensive.

I actually asked permission. It is because I have always been
fair and honest that I am known as 'Fairly Honest Irv'.
I couldn't take any test equipment or the Fluke 77, but
I luckily picked one up for $25 at a flea market.

Post by Jeff Liebermann
My standard precaution is to buy extra parts. The parts are cheap. My
time is not. I use metal egg trays for parts storage. However, I
also tend to tip those over or bury them in junk. My latest trick is
using semi-sticky window shelf paper to hold parts. That works great
after I remove the flies, bugs, and glue eating banana slugs.

I use the sticky tape method too! Now If I could just find where
it put it!

Post by Jeff Liebermann
Agreed. When I started in engineering, it was 99.9% engineering and
0.01% politics. 15 years or so later, it was 99.9% politics and 0.01%
engineering. Productivity was about the same in both cases. Now that
I'm officially in the repair biz, my guess is about 33% repair, 33%
paper shuffling, and 33% customer ego support.

<GRIN>

Post by Jeff Liebermann
One nice thing about ham radio is that if I announce that I'm working
on a project, and I procrastinate enough, then one of the local hams
will eventually do it for me. See Tom Sawyer white washing a fence
for details on how it works.

That's pretty common here in town. If an antenna is being
raised, even digging the hole for a tower, there is usually a
good turnout of the younger more able hams. Some say
that hams aren't like they used to be, but for the most part
I find them a good crowd.

Post by Jeff Liebermann
Not really. As I previously ranted, only certain people seem to blow
up the diodes. If you haven't blown any diodes by now, you're
probably safe. Just don't loan it to any of your friends, especially
on Field Day[1]. What seems to kill the analyzers is the act of
plugging in and unplugging a PL-259 to the unit. The PL-259 is unique
in that the center pin makes contact before the ground. This is
what's commonly known as a lousy idea. If you've built up a static
charge with your clothes and shoes, and are holding the shield, you'll
discharge yourself through the center pin and directly into the
diodes. That's my guess(tm) as to what's happening. I now make it a
habit of touching the center pin to case ground, before plugging in.
No clue if it helps, but it seems like a good idea. The N connector
on the MFJ-269B should not have this problem, but they seem to blow up
anyway, probably due to a different failure mechanism.

I wouldn't even loan it to my mother, had she been a ham,
but I've carried it to a few hams but did the testing myself.
It cost more than most of my rigs!

Irv VE6BP

Post by Jeff Liebermann
[1] Hint: Measure the DC voltage on the traditional Field Day
balloon supported long wire antenna, especially if there's some wind.
If the DVM doesn't explode, you're still not safe.

When I was still a pretty green ham, I heard a snapping noise
one night -- found it coming from the tuner! Wouldn't touch it
till it stopped! I eventually learned about wind static.

[Jeff Liebermann]

Post by Irv Finkleman
I actually asked permission. It is because I have always been
fair and honest that I am known as 'Fairly Honest Irv'.

If caught, I usually ask for forgiveness. It's easier than asking for
permission. I've gone by various names, none of which involve being
honest.

Post by Irv Finkleman
I couldn't take any test equipment or the Fluke 77, but
I luckily picked one up for $25 at a flea market.

I liberated my Fluke 75. Great DVM.

Post by Irv Finkleman
That's pretty common here in town. If an antenna is being
raised, even digging the hole for a tower, there is usually a
good turnout of the younger more able hams. Some say
that hams aren't like they used to be, but for the most part
I find them a good crowd.

The local help is mixed. In general, a work crew can be organized,
but it's not like it was 20-30 years ago. The problem is that the
bulk of the ham population is aging and thus unable to do many of the
dumb and dangerous things that are considered normal for younger hams.
I gave up tower climbing at age=50 and steep roof climbing at age=60.
If I can't find a way to not trip over the coax cables and walk into
the guy wires on my roof, I may need to give up flat roofs.

When dealing with 100ft+ trees, I hire a professional tree climber. I
also have him prune the tree at the same time. I have two stainless
sailing blocks (pulleys) up in the trees for raising wire antennas.
Unfortunately, the rope used to raise the antenna rotted and broke. If
I can find an excuse, I'll hire a tree climber to replace the ropes.

Post by Irv Finkleman
I wouldn't even loan it to my mother, had she been a ham,
but I've carried it to a few hams but did the testing myself.
It cost more than most of my rigs!

The MFJ-259B sells for $240 from various dealers. Your FT-817ND sells
new for about $600. Either you overpaid, or you're getting a sweet
deal on the radios.

[Irv Finkleman]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[Jeff Liebermann]

Post by Irv Finkleman
I have the W8JI procedure tucked away in a safe
place on my computer where I may never find it again,
Thank heaven for good search tools.

Try "Search Everything".
<http://www.voidtools.com>
If you can remember parts of the file name or folder, it will find it
instantly.

Post by Irv Finkleman

Post by Jeff Liebermann
The procedure took me 2 full days on an MFJ-269B. It went much
quicker after I read and followed the instructions.

Now there's a very unhamlike suggestion -- wouldn't stopping
to read and follow the instructions severely slow down the
calibration procedure?

I consider reading instructions a sign of weakness, especially when
customers are watching. When they see me reading the docs, they
usually ask if I know what I'm doing, or if I had done this before. In
order to maintain my image, I try not to be seen reading the docs.

However, I do read the instructions..... after I'm done, and only to
see if I missed anything. On the MFJ-269B calibration, and after
starting over for the 3rd or 4th time, I decided that it might be
useful to just do it right, reading from beginning to end.

Post by Irv Finkleman
At the moment I'm considering how to rotate it, and
wondering if I couldn't use a wooden ladder with lots
of wire stapled to it in a multiband Hentenna configuration!
I guess I may have to rethink it and take it one step at
a time! Now, I have to consider which rotor. Do you by
chance know offhand the wind load of a 20 ft Al ladder?

No, but I could probably calculate the wind load if I had the
dimensions. Ice load will probably be the worst case. However, I
don't think a rotatable ladder would be a good or useful idea. The
ladder is mostly vertical, and rotation of a vertical doesn't do
anything useful. I suggest you leave it leaning against the building
and live with whatever that produces.

Incidentally, if there's anyone living directly below you, they may
object to having the ladder block their view. My friend's ladder
antenna was possible because his condo was a townhouse arrangement,
where he owned both the lower and upper windows.

Post by Irv Finkleman
How about a folding ladder for the sake of extra length?

The 20ft ladder I used was a 2 section telescoping ladder. I had the
not so bright idea of changing the length in order to tune the antenna
to something near 1/4 wavelength. I also experimented with an
insulating sleeve between the two sections in an attempt to make a
vertical dipole. Both proved of dubious value as the best results
were from using the full length ladder and an antenna tuner.

I'm not sure what a folding ladder will do except to add weight and
attract unwanted attention. I just gave away two steel folding
ladders. They weighed far too much but were admittedly quite useful.

Post by Irv Finkleman
I'll use double sideband so that it won't matter which end of
the ladder I feed it from!

Be sure to tilt your radio vertically to match the antenna
polarization.

Post by Irv Finkleman
Cheers, this is fun!

If it were easy, it would not be fun.

[jta]

You shouldn't need to unroll the wire at all since you're using a tuner
Just hook it up and tune away.

Post by Irv Finkleman
I am using a random wire antenna which runs outdoors through a hole in
window frame.
I do not have access to any good RF grounding system and plan to use a
indoor
counterpoise wire from the ground connection on the tuner (MFJ-949E).
have
a
nice role of #18 wire, the end is connected to the tuner, and it is my
intention to
unroll it along the floor through my suite until such time as it i
properly
tuned.
MY QUESTION IS - How can I tell when I have unrolled the right amount o
wire
for the frequency in use. I know it will not be 1/4 wave, and that it
should be less.
From what I understand, when it is adjusted properly I should not hav
any
hot
RF burning my lips from the mike. Checking it with my lips is not wha
I
call
a desireable means of testing, and being single I cannot call my wife t
test it
for me. I'd like to find a better way and hence my questions.
I believe (according to what theory I have learned) that the tune
chassis
would
be hot with RF, with the amount of RF becoming less and less as the
counterpoise
wire approaches the proper length. If this is true would a simple R
sniffer
tell me?
I can rig one up fairly easily.
OR - What would I be looking for using my MFJ-259B SWR Analyzer?
expect
what it would show readings similar to a dipole with resonance at the
operating
frequency and an impedance (resistive) of somewhere in the order of 6
ohms.
plus or minus -- is this a correct assumption?
OR -- does anyone on the group have any suggestions that will tell m
when
the
system is properly adjusted -- the simpler the better!
Once I have found how to do this, I can put tape markings on the rol
of
counterpoise wire to show the appropriate length for each band o
narrow
band of frequencies in which I will be operating.
I have already tested the hole -- it is just a little less than 1/4 inc
diamater,
but that seems to be enough to let both sidebands through -- I carefull
tested
that using AM which proves that two sidebands can fit through the hol
at
the
same time, which allows me to further assume that either the upper o
lower
sidebands should squeeze through easily! :-)
Thanks in advance for any assistance you can provide in this matter.
Irv VE6BP
On the air finally but afraid to get to close to the mike! I may have
to use rubber gloves and teflon lip gloss

--
jta